GMG Listening Group — Stravinsky's Agon :: 22 May - 4 June 2011

[Scarpia]

Well, I think I've confused you by concentrating (in this post) on mm. 1-7 of the Prelude. I think any of us would hear the final cadence in bar 60 of the Prelude as centered on C.

Ok, I'll have to listen to it again.

[karlhenning]

Exactly. Abandon hope all ye who expect functional Common Practice harmony here . . . .

[Scarpia]

Exactly. Abandon all hope all ye who expect functional Common Practice harmony here . . . .

[karlhenning]

Well, not all hope, not in this case . . . .

[Scarpia]

Well, not all hope, not in this case . . . .

Just being fussy of a freqently mis-translated passage.  Lasciate ogni speranze, voi ch'entrate not Lasciate la speranza, tutti ch'entrate.

[karlhenning]

Yes, i' faith, a good fussy.

[Palmetto]

I think the 'Listening Group' is a grand idea, but if this discussion is in a beginners forum then I've got a lot farther to go than I thought.  I'm not sure what I expected; is this similar to previous ones?

[DavidW]

I think the 'Listening Group' is a grand idea, but if this discussion is in a beginners forum then I've got a lot farther to go than I thought.  I'm not sure what I expected; is this similar to previous ones?

Uh no these guys are crazy!   This is not like the other ones, you should see the Vivaldi discussion, it was very simple to follow no technical discussion.  Don't worry you're not alone in feeling that way.

[karlhenning]

We are daft, Palmetto. But ask the questions you wish to ask, make the observations you feel inspired to, and we looneys will adapt.

[Cato]

We are daft, Palmetto. But ask the questions you wish to ask, make the observations you feel inspired to, and we looneys will adapt.

Did somebody mention daft loonies?



The link e.g. to Bonnie Jacobi's Ph.D. paper on analyzing the tonal vs. serial aspects of Agon no doubt could seem a bit much to beginners.  But you never know: better to overestimate rather than underestimate your audience!

[Palmetto]

I can't find any beginner's explanations for many of the terms being used here.  The only reference I could find to 'First Principles' was this example of Excellence in Obfuscation:

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=491&loc=r

I can't find an definition of a chord that makes sense to this non-musician; something about thirds and fifths.  (I believe a fifth or two would be very helpful right about now, but not in the musical sense.)  I assume without that, I'm not going to comprehend what a triad is (besides a region in North Carolina).

Most of what I've found uses snippets of what I'll ignorantly call 'sheet music' to illustrate what it's talking about.  (Yes, I'm sure I grossly misused that term, but in my ignorance I don't know what else to call the visual depiction of just two or three notes.)  I'm sure these make sense to those who know how to read them.

I have -GOT- to finish this SC history so I can free up my reading schedule!  Jumping between Wikipedia articles is getting me nowhere.  I'm in danger of slipping back into analysis mode at the expense of the music, missing the forest for the trees.

EDITED - I just realized I don't need introductory references to classical music; I need an introduction to MUSIC, PERIOD.  These terms, concepts, and constructs apply to all music, don't they?

[Palmetto]

The reason that I think that the Prelude is tonal is that I hear melodies, how can atonal music be melodic?  And also it sounds structured. While 12 tone music is highly structured, to the ear (or my ear specifically) it doesn't sound structured but almost random.  The Prelude doesn't sound that way.

I hear melodies, but as brief, independent, random snippets.  That's not just for the prelude; as I understand preludes, it's almost like a movie trailer - bits and pieces of what's to come.  But I hear the entire piece that way; little seems to relate to anything that came before.  I realize this was written for a series of dances; should I listen to this as a collection of separate short works instead of a whole?

[karlhenning]

I hear melodies, but as brief, independent, random snippets.  That's not just for the prelude; as I understand preludes, it's almost like a movie trailer - bits and pieces of what's to come.  But I hear the entire piece that way; little seems to relate to anything that came before.  I realize this was written for a series of dances; should I listen to this as a collection of separate short works instead of a whole?

In short, yes. There is a sense in which Stravinsky has come full circle back to Le sacre, which similarly is essentially a sequence of numbers, with the occasional thematic interconnection between this or that pair.

Do you hear the Coda at the end of Agon referring to anything earlier, Palmetto?

[Palmetto]

Leon, thanks for changing the link.  The first site still took too much for granted, introducing terms without adequate explanation (major, minor, perfect).  The first three examples in the scales sound different but looked like they were written the same way; I could see the added interval markings beneath the notes but couldn't distinguish a difference in the notes themselves.  At first glance, the second site looks more basic, more fitting for my current level.

I notice you also clarified your earlier post.  Thanks.

[Palmetto]

Do you hear the Coda at the end of Agon referring to anything earlier, Palmetto?

Not by the time I get there.  It's like watching 'The Big Sleep' - there's so much going on I lose track of what came before.

[karlhenning]

And . . . the second time you listen to the whole?

What do you remember of the journey?  For even at the end of The Big Sleep, you must remember "She fell into my lap standing up" scene . . . .

[DavidW]

Listen to the brass in the first movement and the final movement.

[Florestan]

I've just listened to the whole thing for the first time --- not very attentive, though, but the last thing that can be said about it is that it lacks meter and pulse. 

[Palmetto]

And . . . the second time you listen to the whole?

And the third time, too.

What do you remember of the journey?  For even at the end of The Big Sleep, you must remember "She fell into my lap standing up" scene . . . .

Wanting to see the physical  movements that it originally accompanied.  I think (perhaps foolishly) that a ballet score is half of a whole, that there's a synergy lacking when presenting either video or audio portion alone, like viewing the Grand Canyon with one eye closed.

I know, you were asking for a musical impression, but I just didn't find anything exciting or memorable.  I remember the brass mozartfan mentions, but mostly as, 'Oh, hey; a new movement is starting."  I didn't remember enough from the first time I heard it to pick up on it again later.

I going to run it again, this time listening to movements independent of each other, and with mozartfan's brass suggestions.

[Palmetto]

Lesson learned - it was a mistake downloading this as a single .MP3.  I can't tell where the individual movements begin or end with any certainty.  Looking at the sequences listed for several albums wasn't any help; I don't get why they list a prelude fourth or why there are two codas.  I don't know if what I've got matches the play sequences listed for the albums, or if I'm hearing the movements in the order Stravinsky intended.  Clearly I need to pull down separate movements in the future, if only to facilitate coherent conversation.

Lesson learned - it's easier to retain impressions if I keep notes as I go.

So here are the notes I took during back-to-back listenings.  Since I can't tell when the movements begin or end with any precision, I'm stuck referring to times.  These are simple impressions; I apologize for the lack of depth and crudity of the comments.  Remarks in parenthesis indicate uncertainty on my part.

0:00 - Brass; annoying (harp?); brass melody again; low strings; annoying harp melody, repeated by (woodwinds?); annoying strings; brass tripping over itself, then quieter.

1:44 - Frenetic, rushed strings; annoying (flute?) and brass notes.  Brass and woodwinds chasing their tails. 

3:06 - More frenetic strings dominate; almost seasick.

4:06 - Martial sounding brass and drums.  Similar to previous brass line at 0:00

4:20 - Mostly drums, other instruments almost too low to hear or identify.

4:58 - Low (brass?)  Circus, clumsy clowns.  Something amusing that goes 'tinkle-tinkle-tinkle' several times.

6:00 - (Flutes?  Woodwinds?  Harp?)  Graceful.  I actually enjoyed this one.

7:14 - (Harp?) and brass again; fewer instruments than at 4:58, but enough to revive the 'clumsy clown' impression.

8:33 -  Martial-sounding drums and brass again.  I can pick up bits of brass I've heard earlier.  Gives way to quite drums similar to 4:20, then brass resumes around 9:26

10:15 - Clicking (drumsticks?)  Something being struck against something else, and a flute or horn. 

11:24 - Brass and very annoying strings, sandwiched around an unpleasant piano around 12:09.

12:50 - Drums, brass repeats same earlier melody as 0:00 and 4:06

13:15 - Quiet drumming (I had to firewall the volume); eventually low strings.  No discernable melody or rhythm.  Longest movement? 

17:15 - Single horn and something being strummed or plucked (harp?); martial rhythm, then horn and strumming again.

18:16 - Plucking or strumming; different melody?  Oriental sounding, although I don't know what sounds gave me that impression.

19:00 - Strident drums, very disturbing after the previous minute; then plucking / strumming again.  Unpleasant strings.

20:35 - Okay, there's the brass and strings repeated from the beginning.

All in all, nothing I'd want to hear again.  Glad I didn't spend much on it.  Let the flaming begin.