Havergal Brian.

Brian · September 05, 2011, 06:18:40 AM

Quote from: Dundonnell on September 04, 2011, 01:51:57 PM
Ooohhhh!

I had better start being nice about that wonderful company BIS and the marvellous work they have done for so many worthy composers, particularly Sibelius, Kokkonen, Aho, Holmboe, Saeverud, Alfven, Blomdahl...........

For me at least it's not at all taxing to be nice about BIS.

John Whitmore · September 05, 2011, 06:22:16 AM

Quote from: cilgwyn on September 05, 2011, 03:14:11 AM
You haven't heard 'Das Siegeslied'? We were talking about that a few pages back (p119). WE were saying that it was 'our' least favourite Brian work. Well,the Brian enthusiasts who were on there at the time,anyway. Main reason: allot of 'padding'. Although,it contains allot of tremendous music,it does have me drumming the old fingers in places,especially in the last movement. And if you think the Gothic is LOUD!
The Poole is without question,the best performance.

NB: Accidentally,posted some comments about Brian's piano music on the DJ thread!!!

Just played the CD of the Brian 4th. It's this sort of thing that gets him a bad name. It outstays its welcome, has too many thick, loud passages and the opening and ending are so lame. Lots of very uninspiring pages and little that lingers in the memory. Nothing in it moved me in the slightest. It sounds like a chore to play as well. Amazed that Luke likes it but there we go. This is very much up there with the Khachaturian 3rd in my list of horrors. I need to cleanse my soul by playing some inspiring choral music - A Child of Our Time comes to mind. This new CD will be back on Ebay very shortly I think. I always try to give credit where I think it's due but this is a shocker.

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 08:08:31 AM

I played it allot when I was a teenager. Also,Khatchaturian & Gliiere's Ilya Murometz. They were all very loud & I would have them on FULL BLAST! Of course,I didn't have the Marco Polo recording,I had the Poole performance on a dolby cassette,which someone sent me in a nice brown package,through the post! I still feel the second movement is by far the best part of it,but in saying this,I have to confess I can't even remember the last time I played it. If you recall,there is a colossal,loud climax,somewhere near the middle. My parents must have got sick of hearing it. Imagine? A son who plays the Gothic AND das Siegeslied over and over again,FULL BLAST!
After that,(Das Siegeslied,Khatchaturian & Ilya Murometz) Led Zeppelin sounded like the Carpenters!
I still like Gliere,though. At least he seemed to know WHEN to be loud. But I must confess,it's his more modest 1st and 2nd that get played the most.
On the one occasion I played Das Siegeslied,at a party (!) someone asked me if I had put the tape on at the wrong speed. I remember feeling a bit upset.

J.Z. Herrenberg · September 05, 2011, 08:12:12 AM

That's a sound trashing, John. That's okay. It's already a miracle you have come to like more of Brian than 'just' the Tenth Symphony!

Let me (re-)state my current position. 'Das Siegeslied' isn't a 'nice' piece - it's sets a very aggressive Old Testament psalm and does so appropriately aggressively (but there are very gentle passages, too!) There have been a handful of performances, none of them satisfactory. The Naxos recording falls short, too. I know, because the live one by Poole does convince me in many places. So I am keeping an open mind about the quality of this symphony. Yes, I do have problems with it, though not with the choral part - the stridency and militarism are right. My problem is mainly with the final movement, as I said before. Luke explained why he thought it did hang together very well. I hope one day a conductor will ultimately convince me. I don't think the opening idea is one of Brian's strongest either, whatever Malcolm MacDonald may say ('Handelian grandeur'). To compare Brian's Fourth to Khatchaturian's Third as you do goes too far, that work is mindlessly triumphant, 'Das Siegeslied' certainly isn't.

Before returning the CD to eBay, please try your luck with the very short Symphony No. 12!

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 08:21:51 AM

Regarding the Poole recording. Felicity Palmer was marvellous in the second movement. I think she should have had an award for bravery!
Call me Glenda Slag now,after saying the above;but I DO feel there IS allot of tremendous music there. If only Brian could have pared it down a bit ie 'sorted out the chaff from the wheat',as they say.
Mind you,if Testament ever release the Poole recording it will be a definate pre-order.
Unlike John,I'm going to have to give it another listen. But it won't be that horrible Marco Polo!
By the way,I should have made clear in the above post. I still admire the Gothic. It's Khatchaturian & Das Siegeslied I don't listen to much!

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 08:31:27 AM

Disagree,completely,with John on one point. The Second movement is one of Brian's best. And on second thoughts,just hearing bits of the Poole performance in my head. The best bits,particularly the choral writing,are so good they just keep drawing me on past the,not so good,bits. Which is another reason why I hardly ever put it on. With all it's faults,I nearly always end up listening all the way through.
But my goodness,that final movement doesn't half go on and on and on!

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 08:35:07 AM

Let god arise,let his enemies be scattered!!!!!

J.Z. Herrenberg · September 05, 2011, 08:59:23 AM

Judge for yourselves. A recording of a live performance (1974) of Havergal Brian's Fourth Symphony, 'Das Siegeslied', in three movements. Felicity Palmer (soprano), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by John Poole:

http://www.mediafire.com/?5v9qowgsg59m8

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 09:16:50 AM

That's the one I kept playing full blast when I was a teenager! John's the one who needs to listen to it. Maybe this is THE performance that will change his mind.
I personally,can't stand the Marco Polo one & to cap it all,the Marco Polo recording has that wierd,'boxy' sound to it that seemed to afflict so many MP. The Poole recording is old,but it sounds clean and open,even on my ancient 25 year old cassette,which at my last try,still worked.
This would have been the recording on the Aries Lp,of course.
Once,I get some brand name cds sorted out I will transfer that upload from the pc. I think I was too harsh on it in my previous post. I can 'hear' allot of the Poole recording in my head now,and it 'sounds' very exciting.
If you can get through some of the less inspired parts of the finale,that final surge of the chorus,right at the end,is one of THE most thrilling sounds I have heard in any choral work.

Dundonnell · September 05, 2011, 09:23:06 AM

I think that I ought to be giving Das Siegeslied another listen after the kicking it has had

Not listened to it in yonks.

When I read a description like "a shattering, armour-plated juggernaut of a symphony" I instinctively feel that it must be just up my street.

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 09:30:00 AM

All it needs is Bis to give it the Jon Leifs treatment!
Das Siegeslied. Jon Leifs meets William Walton!!!

Dundonnell · September 05, 2011, 09:34:47 AM

Oh...I see that I have the Marco Polo version on disc but for some reason didn't download the version conducted by Poole...which you say is much better!

Back to 'Unsung Composers' I go

cilgwyn · September 05, 2011, 09:36:58 AM

The link for the Poole recording is on this 'page'!

Dundonnell · September 05, 2011, 09:41:12 AM

Eeekkk, so it is

Cheers

thranx · September 05, 2011, 10:37:33 AM

I presume most of you have by now seen the all-too brief 8+ minutes of video I managed to shoot during the final rehearsal. If not, go to:Go to http://vimeo.com/28335522
Different sections of the symphony than are shown in the couple of clips posted on youtube. I only wish there was more.

Dundonnell · September 05, 2011, 11:48:17 AM

Well, I know that I hadn't seen this video.

Having attended the actual performance and been lucky enough to have been sitting in the centre of the front row of the stalls

(next to Johan!!) it brings back the immensity of the undertaking and the sheer unadulterated courage of Martyn Brabbins to conduct such huge forces.

An evening I shall never forget

J.Z. Herrenberg · September 05, 2011, 11:54:23 AM

Quote from: thranx on September 05, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
I presume most of you have by now seen the all-too brief 8+ minutes of video I managed to shoot during the final rehearsal. If not, go to:Go to http://vimeo.com/28335522
Different sections of the symphony than are shown in the couple of clips posted on youtube. I only wish there was more.

Many thanks for this! I hadn't seen this before! (Btw, we shared a HBS lunch in Wardour St, if I'm not mistaken?!)

hbswebmaster · September 05, 2011, 11:57:00 AM

Brings it all back...

J.Z. Herrenberg · September 05, 2011, 12:00:58 PM

Quote from: hbswebmaster on September 05, 2011, 11:57:00 AM
Brings it all back...

... all too briefly...

thranx · September 05, 2011, 02:41:35 PM

Hi J.Z.;
Yes, lunch we did. For the performance I was in the first row of the stalls in section J. Best money I ever spent (well, there was that time in Papua New Guinea....). I had thoughts of trying to video some of the actual performance. I chose not to because a) I wanted to enjoy the entire performance, and b) my camera records to a flash drive and I feared some officious RAH type asking me to wipe the contents, which would of course have removed the rehearsal footage that I was able to shoot...before an officious RAH type asked me to desist, which is why there isn't more footage from said rehearsal.