Havergal Brian.

[Albion]

I'm not sure if this link has already been cited, but here are some further very interesting comments arising from the experience of The Gothic performance -

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

There is certainly a great deal of mileage in the idea of the work as an anti-symphony and the references to Berlioz struck a very loud chord with me, both in the sheer scale of conception and more especially in the seemingly arbitrary juxtapositions of what-appears-to-be unrelated material (I really must get down to re-reading volume 3 of Malcolm Macdonald's set where he addresses Brian's debt to his musical forebears).

[5against4]

There is certainly a great deal of mileage in the idea of the work as an anti-symphony and the references to Berlioz struck a very loud chord with me, both in the sheer scale of conception and more especially in the seemingly arbitrary juxtapositions of what-appears-to-be unrelated material (I really must get down to re-reading volume 3 of Malcolm Macdonald's set where he addresses Brian's debt to his musical forebears).

Those descending pedal notes in the third movement are a dead ringer for the 'Hostias' of Berlioz's Requiem. Strictly speaking, Berlioz's closing passage is Bb - A - G# - A - Bb, so not exactly the same, but one so rarely hears writing like that, that the connection is instantly made!

[vandermolen]

Great posts here and I also very much agree with Albion's observations too and am sorry not to have met him on the great evening. I'm rather regretting going on holiday tomorrow and not being able to follow the thread - still, on second thoughts I'm sure that my wife will not mind one bit being dragged into an internet cafe in Slovenia to see what is going on in the Havergal Brian thread of the GMG forum  On the other hand I negotiated the holiday dates to avoid 17th July - I am so glad that I did that.

For me, one of the most moving parts of the Gothic is (excuse lack of technical description) in the Vivace third movement (track 10 of the first CD of the Lenard recording), there is a kind of doomed processional, bookended by a very poignant fanfare motif.  I had to keep playing this over and over again in the car yesterday, with tears in my eyes. Brian evidently loved German culture and hated militarism - if the Gothic is somehow related to the experience of World War One (and part of me thinks how could it not be) then maybe it is reflected here.  It is the compassion and humanity of Brian's vision, completely devoid of sentimentality which I find so moving - and the whole symphony is shot through with it.

[Philip Legge]

Albion,

you should read Harold Truscott! His thesis is that Brian's thinking is actually anti-symphonic, and the Gothic an anti-symphony, and he argues his case very persuasively.

5:4,

the use of the trombone pedals is not only an unusual feature of the Berlioz Grande messe des morts (indeed, how many times do you hear writing like that?) but Berlioz himself cited that passage in his Grand Traité d'Instrumentation et d'Orchestration Modernes : every subsequent orchestral composer worth his or her salt should have known of it through either the Strauss revision of the book or the Berlioz original.

vandermolen,

I hear the tread of Brian's war experiences particularly in the Judex, as well as the second and third movements of Part I. The fanfare motif of course appears in the Grandioso conclusion of the movement, transfigured into a huge canonic structure between the cornets, trumpets and trombones with side drums repeating a stern tattoo underlying the militaristic connection. This seems like a colossal victory, but it one that is almost hurled aside by the return to the opening music of the Scherzo with that decisive cadence into D minor.

[John Whitmore]

Hi Johan and the rest of you. Here are my edited individual tracks of the Gothic. High quality MP3s. I've also included CD artwork. CD 1 = tracks 1 to 5. CD2 = tracks 6 and 7. It sounds good.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ogxaa5c56ehp4

[5against4]

5:4,

the use of the trombone pedals is not only an unusual feature of the Berlioz Grande messe des morts (indeed, how many times do you hear writing like that?) but Berlioz himself cited that passage in his Grand Traité d'Instrumentation et d'Orchestration Modernes : every subsequent orchestral composer worth his or her salt should have known of it through either the Strauss revision of the book or the Berlioz original.

Absolutely right - i'll never forget getting my hands on a copy of Berlioz's Traité at the start of my first music degree, & devouring it! You can tell just how proud Berlioz was of writing that passage 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The 'Gothic' is causing a lot of reactions, and not only here. The post Albion spotted is indeed very interesting. The writer struggles with the work, but is very open-minded. His piece also provides other (commented and quoted) links [below the three that really struck me]. There are a lot of people thinking about Brian's music in a serious way. This bodes very well for the future!


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radio3/2011/07/havergal-brians-gothic---how-w.shtml



http://thomasinthepark.blogspot.com/2011/07/view-from-gothic.html



http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_prom_review.php?id=9379

[vandermolen]

Philip - thank you for your comment.

David Nice wrote a predictably dreadful review of the concert for the Arts Desk - I say predictably because he also rubbished Miaskovsky's 6th Symphony - another epic masterpiece in my view, which I was privileged to hear a performance of in London last year (Jurowski).


There has been an interesting if sometimes vitriolic debate on the Gothic in the comments section (below the review) and I especially liked the observations by Simon Jenner (whom I had fascinating conversations with in a record shop in Brightom years ago) and also Dean Foster - who came from Arizona for the concert!

The link is here:

http://www.theartsdesk.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=4137:havergal-brians-gothic-symphony-bbc-concert-orchestra-bbcnow-brabbins-royal-albert-hall&Itemid=27

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I had given David Nice's little hole in cyberspace a miss, but I am glad you mentioned the reactions, Jeffrey. Only now I discover that the American gentleman I talked with and had lunch with (along with 9 others) at a Chinese restaurant the following day was science fiction writer Alan Dean Foster, who has been a member of the HBS for many years!


We're spoiled for Gothics here!


Oh, and thank you, Jeffrey and Philip, for some very illuminating observations!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music? We simply want good music to get its due. Apart from that - history is made by motivated minorities.

[Philip Legge]

Hi vandermolen,

thanks for pointing out the comment by the well-known SF author Allan Dean Foster – it hadn't been there when earlier I looked at the review by Mr David (Not-Very-)Nice; I had visited the page because one of my friends also writes for The Arts Desk, and she had reviewed the Beethoven Triple Concerto and Messiaen's Les Offrandes Oubliées under the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France and Myung-Whun Chung; regrettably even she couldn't pass up the opportunity of obliquely having a dig at Brian's "chaotic uncertainty". Foster has also written one of the most incisive articles on the other choral symphony by Brian, "Das Siegeslied" (just in case it needed spelling out, twenty-nine of the 32 are purely orchestral; there is also a "Solo Cantata" (original designation of the Symphony No.5) for baritone and orchestra).

Mr Nice's own comments in the discussion following his review are really quite telling, in how he truculently owns up to not doing his homework, and asking, so what? He seems to be defending the critic's right to be able to publish abroad his or her view wholesale, from a position of almost complete ignorance. And he only had a single listening to base his opinion on: others were content to issue a similarly damning comment on their own lack of critical discernment without having heard all of Part One.

Cheers, Philip

PS Thanks Johnwh51 for your uploads to MediaFire – I am attending to them currently, in the reverse direction!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Has anyone, apart from Luke, read the two pieces by our very own Brian? They are absolutely amazing. My day was already made, but now I am in heaven. I always say that the quality of an artist equals the quality of the reaction it elicits, because (s)he has the power to inspire.


Of course, there are stupid responses to the 'Gothic'. But there already have been several things said which either confirm thoughts I have long had (the link Brian-Joyce, for instance) or have taught me something I hadn't understood so well until now (Philip's remark about the relative triumph in the Vivace, which then suddenly is akin to what happens in the second movement of Mahler's Fifth).


http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/seeing-the-gothic
http://bgreinhart.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/on-ambition-in-art/

[Brian]

P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music?

I just read that same line in the Daily Telegraph. The answer, of course, is that the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music would be a whole hell of a lot more solicitous.

P.S. Thanks for the comments on my writing! Glad my inability to communicate in person after the concert has been somewhat redeemed  0:) . And Luke...

But at least I got a tangential mention (and not as the 'flamboyantly gay man shouting 'Marvellous,'' before anyone asks...).

(You mentioned him too of course - the "prom of the year" chap...)

[Hattoff]

Don't take any notice of David Nice (I know you won't).
I have had dealings with him on the Prokofiev message board, he is too full of his own self importance to be taken seriously.

[vandermolen]

Hi vandermolen,

thanks for pointing out the comment by the well-known SF author Allan Dean Foster – it hadn't been there when earlier I looked at the review by Mr David (Not-Very-)Nice; I had visited the page because one of my friends also writes for The Arts Desk, and she had reviewed the Beethoven Triple Concerto and Messiaen's Les Offrandes Oubliées under the Orchestre Philharmonique de Radio France and Myung-Whun Chung; regrettably even she couldn't pass up the opportunity of obliquely having a dig at Brian's "chaotic uncertainty". Foster has also written one of the most incisive articles on the other choral symphony by Brian, "Das Siegeslied" (just in case it needed spelling out, twenty-nine of the 32 are purely orchestral; there is also a "Solo Cantata" (original designation of the Symphony No.5) for baritone and orchestra).

Mr Nice's own comments in the discussion following his review are really quite telling, in how he truculently owns up to not doing his homework, and asking, so what? He seems to be defending the critic's right to be able to publish abroad his or her view wholesale, from a position of almost complete ignorance. And he only had a single listening to base his opinion on: others were content to issue a similarly damning comment on their own lack of critical discernment without having heard all of Part One.

Cheers, Philip

PS Thanks Johnwh51 for your uploads to MediaFire – I am attending to them currently, in the reverse direction!

Thank you Philip - I thought that the posting by Simon Jenner in the comments section was very perceptive too.
Best wishes
Jeffrey

[Philip Legge]

P.S. I am struck how often the term 'Brian fanatic' is used. Are we the Jehovah's Witnesses of classical music? We simply want good music to get its due. Apart from that - history is made by motivated minorities.

I think "Brian fanatic" is quite a restrained description that I would be proud to claim for myself, compared to the accusation of being a serial pest capable only of nocturnal ejaculations, or to the following unflattering report thanks to David Hurwitz in his review of the Naxos re-release of the Bratislava Gothic on the Classics Today website:

How vividly I remember the initial release of this set on Marco Polo some 15 years ago. There I was, clutching my copy of this legendary work having suffered previously through the hideous sound of a pirate issue of Boult's performance. Standing in line before me at Tower Records, Lincoln Center, was the New York chapter of the Havergal Brian Society. There were about 10 of them, average age about 70, men with bald scalps and lanky shoulder-length white hair hanging limply in the latest Benjamin Franklin style. All wore thick glasses, and a few had conditions that I thought had been cured by the turn of the last century: goiters, a harelip or two, and various poxes and skin diseases. None had credit cards, or a majority of their teeth, but most had, to put in kindly, olfactorily obvious personal hygiene issues.

Linky for the entire review

[Klaatu]

Taking the biscuit for facile negativity towards the Gothic performance is this gem from Jessica Duchen:

http://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-i-didnt-go-gothic.html

I quote:

"I listened to a bit of it on Radio 3 - but I didn't buy into it. I didn't stay the course. What I heard was just enough to confirm my reasons for not going: I've had it with white elephants."

Now, if one is going to make a comment on a piece that cost its composer dearly in terms of time and effort, one might at least have the courtesy to listen to the bloody thing all the way through.

This music journalist's comments remind me of those extremely annoying book "reviews" to be found on Amazon:

"Well, I only read the preface, but that was enough for me to know that the book was a load of crap - and anyway, all my friends say it is"

Utter intellectual laziness; one wonders how many other "experts" critique this work after "listening to a bit of it".

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Taking the biscuit for facile negativity towards the Gothic performance is this gem from Jessica Duchen:

http://jessicamusic.blogspot.com/2011/07/why-i-didnt-go-gothic.html

I quote:

"I listened to a bit of it on Radio 3 - but I didn't buy into it. I didn't stay the course. What I heard was just enough to confirm my reasons for not going: I've had it with white elephants."

Now, if one is going to make a comment on a piece that cost its composer dearly in terms of time and effort, one might at least have the courtesy to listen to the bloody thing all the way through.

This music journalist's comments remind me of those extremely annoying book "reviews" to be found on Amazon:

"Well, I only read the preface, but that was enough for me to know that the book was a load of crap - and anyway, all my friends say it is"

Utter intellectual laziness; one wonders how many other "experts" critique this work after "listening to a bit of it".

I was very very disppointed by this. I 'know' Jessica, from Facebook, and Twitter, we have exchanged mails. I love her book about Korngold, who is her 'Brian'. I think I'll say to her that she musn't equate a temperamental inability to like a certain music with the music itself. She is now doing to Brian what she deplores in those who damn Korngold.

[karlhenning]

. . . (and not as the 'flamboyantly gay man shouting 'Marvellous,'' before anyone asks...)

Oh, that provoked a great chuckle! : )

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

This is what I just wrote in reaction to her link on Facebook:


Dear Jessica. I was very very disppointed by this. I hope you will one day reconsider your verdict. I think you are equating a temperamental inability to like and understand a certain music (very valid!) with the music itself. You are now doing to Brian what you deplore in those who damn Korngold. But you're still young...