Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Thanks for your trawl, Luke.


Yes, both reviews make a few mistakes (Brian 33 when he started the 'Gothic'?- 43!) But the main thing is - they show that people with no fully-formed taste (= no preconceptions) can appreciate what is on offer on a very basic level. My friend Michiel Schuijer (who was with me, he wrote an important book on pitch-class set theory), said to me already two decades ago that Brian really should be experienced live. It is a bit like what Robert Schumann realised about Wagner - when he read the score of Tannhäuser, he didn't like it as music; when he heard the work at the opera house, he noticed to his surprise that it 'worked'. I think, because of the shortage of performances, we forget about the sheer physical impact Brian's music can have. It is part and parcel of what his work is.

[5against4]

It is a bit like what Robert Schumann realised about Wagner - when he read the score of Tannhäuser, he didn't like it as music; when he heard the work at the opera house, he noticed to his surprise that it 'worked'. I think, because of the shortage of performances, we forget about the sheer physical impact Brian's music can have. It is part and parcel of what his work is.

This is the sentiment i was trying to tap into in my article, when i alluded to Liverpool Cathedral. i think in all sorts of ways that building is quite ridiculous on paper, but there's something astonishingly successful about the real thing when you're physically beside/within it. It, too, 'works', despite all apparent evidence to the contrary. But then, that's the wonder & mystery of 'gothic'.

[Dundonnell]

A number of contributors to this thread have expressed their dismay and deep regret that the BBC did not televise the performance. That was indeed my own reaction.

I spoke today to someone who occupied a senior position within BBC Music for many years. He pointed out the logistical difficulties involved.

For a 'normal size' orchestra with or without chorus there is a considerable degree of experience possessed by the BBC producers, sound engineers, camera men etc etc. It is therefore not too difficult-though still not by any means easy-to use the rehearsal time for a Proms concert in the Royal Albert Hall for all these people to get it right for a live broadcast.

For the Gothic however, with its massive forces, spatial effects, extraordinary seating arrangements and so on and on(!) the sound and camera folk would have required a lot more than one dress rehearsal in the RAH. And that, of course, they could not get! If they had tried to get everything required set up during the single rehearsal in situ a LOT could have gone wrong.

Now I know no more than I was told today by someone who has a lot of experience of managing an orchestra and arranging recordings for the BBC. I did think that others might find this interesting however.

[Lethevich]

@Dundonnell: thanks, that does help me understand the BBC position as a rational choice rather than a grossly negligent one.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@5against4 How is traffic on your site doing? Is it still up since 'The Gothic'? I liked your piece, it had an original perspective, and those Ruskin quotations were quite apposite. I wonder whether Brian ever read Ruskin... But sometimes an artist doesn't need to know something or someone consciously - the influence can come from the cultural climate itself, into which an idea or a figure has been assimilated.

[5against4]

@5against4 How is traffic on your site doing? Is it still up since 'The Gothic'? I liked your piece, it had an original perspective, and those Ruskin quotations were quite apposite. I wonder whether Brian ever read Ruskin... But sometimes an artist doesn't need to know something or someone consciously - the influence can come from the cultural climate itself, into which an idea or a figure has been assimilated.

For the last couple of days the traffic has been about four times higher than usual. It's had a second boost today, as Alex Ross referred to my article in his summary of the 'Gothic' debate. Lots of downloads, of course, but nowhere near as many downloads as visits, so I'm glad people are reading the article, not just visiting for downloads!

Who knows about whether Brian knew Ruskin's writings? But like you say, ideas can be assimilated in all sorts of ways, not always from primary sources. That's my suggestion in the reference to utopian expressionist architecture, that the mindset could be there in part without a direct connection to the practitioner. Only a theory of course, but why not?

[Brian]

A very dissatisfied, but very funny, comment on my blog (it begins by quoting a few of my words):

"If the Gothic were a book ..."

I found the Prom 4 experience, with all its splendours and miseries, not unlike reading, from cover to cover, a particularly large volume of wallpaper samples.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@Brian I see that Robert Matthew-Walker has reacted to your 'Gothic' post. I met him in 1995 at a Brian concert, where he sold and signed his very entertaining little book Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I am glad he discovered your piece. It clearly pleased him!

[(poco) Sforzando]

A very dissatisfied, but very funny, comment on my blog (it begins by quoting a few of my words):

"If the Gothic were a book ..."

I found the Prom 4 experience, with all its splendours and miseries, not unlike reading, from cover to cover, a particularly large volume of wallpaper samples.

[(poco) Sforzando]

@Brian I see that Robert Matthew-Walker has reacted to your 'Gothic' post. I met him in 1995 at a Brian concert, where he sold and signed his very entertaining little book Havergal Brian: Reminiscences and Observations. I am glad he discovered your piece. It clearly pleased him!

Indeed: "So much mroe insightful than the crap which I am told has appeared in the UK national press, writtng by people who are simply not up to the standrd of the music they purport ot write about."

Well, harrumph! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Indeed: "So much mroe insightful than the crap which I am told has appeared in the UK national press, writtng by people who are simply not up to the standrd of the music they purport ot write about."

Well, harrumph! 

He forgot his glasses.

[(poco) Sforzando]

He forgot his glasses.

Or his spell-checker.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The man is 70 and he has written many books. Perhaps emotion overtook him.    Still, it's clear what he means.

[Philip Legge]

Dundonnell,

since I'm the new kid on the block here (along with 5:4), might I add that your familiarity with Malcolm was obviously one based in lifelong friendship and in the circumstances no offence should be held for a casual reference, rather than always employing the formal "Mr. MacDonald". I suppose I'm rather presumptuous to claim him as a friend also, based on a personal acquaintance of quite ludicrously shorter duration established while he was over here in Australia for the Brisbane Gothic: I'd obviously read many things he's written, and he was also aware of my long-winded, ranting contributions to the pages of the Havergal Brian Society which have been regularly fulminating there for the last few years, and it was a treasure to have him and several other Brian luminaries such as Paul Rapoport in attendance. (He was also incredibly kind to sign my copy of "The Symphonies of Havergal Brian", volume 1.)

I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)

As for your later post about the BBC not filming because the compromised of the production schedule would not meet their high standards for production values; that is very understandable and highly regrettable. But I do hope however they had some fixed cameras in place just to record what was happening (neutral direction).

John,

unfortunately I've had about nil-all to do with WASO: every time I've been over in the west to a concert, it's been with guest orchestras (Australian Youth Orchestra, Prague Chamber Orchestra) and WASO sent along some low brass to the latter outfit for an outstanding Dvořák Stabat mater in the Perth Concert Hall; no extra fiddles were required!

Johan,

I'm in the middle of downloading your sister's first movie taken during the performance – what I've seen is stunning. Thanks to you both from the bottom of my heart!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Johan,

I'm in the middle of downloading your sister's first movie taken during the performance – what I've seen is stunning. Thanks to you both from the bottom of my heart!

Glad you liked it. The conversions, from .mov to .avi. to .mp4, have kept me busy today. The second clip is longer, and comprises everything from the percussion cataclysm to the end. And there is a long section with just the applause... I considered partly cutting that (though I had to see how to do that with Windows Movie Maker), but decided against it. Tomorrow I'll upload the thing.

[bhodges]

I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)

Hello, Philip, and welcome again to GMG. Although I've been pretty much just lurking on this fascinating discussion, as one of the moderators I wanted to address your query above, and the answer is: it's totally up to you. Recently Rob Lang, the forum's owner, suggested that users have a different "login name" and "display name," to help combat the spambots we get occasionally, but this is only a suggestion and not mandatory.

I am fairly transparent - my real name is easily discernable from my blog and other writings - so I suppose I'm in the "semi-concealment" category. But it's all totally up to you - whatever you feel most comfortable with.

--Bruce

[Dundonnell]

@ Johan. And in doing so you will earn and merit the undying gratitude of many of us here


@Philip. My post about how to refer to Malcolm MacDonald was written with my tongue wedged very firmly in cheek   He is indeed a very old friend and I need make no apology for that. If my solitary claim to musical 'fame' is to have introduced him to the music of Havergal Brian(a fact which I had completely forgotten until he reminded me of it a few months ago) then so be it    (I have just opened my copy of Vol.I of his book on the Symphonies. There is a kind message from Malcolm on the flyleaf dated 21 April 1974. Ouch! Tempus fugit!!  As I think you already know my real name is Colin (Mackie).

[bhodges]

Pardon another side comment, but...Colin, it's nice to see you back! If the Gothic concert did nothing else...

--Bruce

[Dundonnell]

Pardon another side comment, but...Colin, it's nice to see you back! If the Gothic concert did nothing else...

--Bruce

Thanks, Bruce!

[Philip Legge]

Bruce and Colin,

thanks both of you for your comments! To Colin, I had the feeling that was the case, but it would have been asinine for me as a newcomer to enter into the joke, if it actually wasn't! It was wonderful to meet Malcolm, and inbetween the rehearsals I managed to organise a dinner for the interlopers from Melbourne and some of the University of Queensland choristers singing in the performance to which he and John Grimshaw (HBS chairman) were the honoured guests: a great time was had by all at an Indian restaurant close by to his hotel. Three weeks later, the restaurant, as well as the lower levels of the concert hall where we performed the Gothic, were inundated by the Queensland floods. "Curse of the Gothic" indeed.

The danger of the author signing the flyleaf of his own books too frequently is that eventually the unsigned copy would prove to be a rarity (as was the case with Ted Heath): for that reason my copies of volumes 2 and 3 will remain unsigned until I have another opportunity to push them beneath his gaze, at say, performances of Symphonies 16 or 30 respectively!