Havergal Brian.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The man is 70 and he has written many books. Perhaps emotion overtook him.    Still, it's clear what he means.

I know neither the man nor his books. Yes, it is clear what he means, and it is precisely what I have been arguing in my previous long post: that it is not enough for the more extreme Brianists to extol the virtues of his work, but that they must also denigrate those who have the temerity to question its merits ("people who are simply not up to the standard of the music they purport to write about"). After I made this point, I was treated here with varying degrees of outrage and contempt; and of the respondents, only Karl and Brian seemed sufficiently dispassionate to admit that my argument had some validity.

You yourself have referred to your advocacy as a battle. But consider your metaphor. The aim of a battle is to subdue an enemy. Subduing your enemy (or like Mr. Matthew-Walker, asserting his inferiority) is hardly an effective means of winning him over to your side. If you genuinely believe Brian is a great composer, that should be something you could try persuading your opponent to see your way (as you quite rightly say, "by giving aesthetic reasons for thinking so"). Yet other than Luke's characteristically insightful comments, I'm not seeing much of that on this thread, only a lot of preaching to the choir, and some degree of resentment towards the benighted philistines.

Perhaps this performance will turn a corner, perhaps it won't. Various performers have given some of Brian's works over the years, yet nothing has ever really taken hold. I readily accept that to those who love Brian's work, this Gothic was a revelatory experience. I assure you that could I have gone to London last week, I would have stood for the two hours myself. As it is, I have 5:4's FLACs, I just burned my CDs, and we shall we what we shall see.

[Philip Legge]

poco sfz,

if you are to continue the argument that there are extreme Brianists doing nothing but extolling the Gothic and denigrating the critics, then I think you had better provide some more evidence for the latter part than a single blog comment seemingly written in haste (as is implied by multiple typos). In fact there has been in the past quite a degree of negative press from critics for Brian advocates to argue against, and one prominent strain of counter-reaction to this has been to write them off as being single-issue, out-of-touch, socially maladroit nutters of various flavours.

I've already quoted my favourite such comment, which was Tweeted before even half an hour of the Proms Gothic had elapsed, but for the record, here it is again: "Finally those moaning boring geeks that would write to me at Radio 3 every week get their wet dream Prom." Andrew Clements politely linked to the Havergal Brian Society web page when referring to Brian's "vociferous admirers", which is a little cute: why would you not expect the members of a composer society to be both admirers, and given to voicing their opinions?

By the way, I'm not inclined to go collecting evidence to continue defending this argument, because it doesn't actually interest me very much at all. The critics are entitled to criticise, and those of us who care about the work under criticism are entitled to point out if the criticism lacks objectivity and balance, such as the point that the negative assessment of a very large, long, and complicated work on a single hearing is possibly unfair (and one particular critic then proceeded to assume that all 32 works with a similar title of "symphony" could be tarred by the same broad brush; I've seen numerous blog comments paraphrasing the idea all the symphonies must be drivel, since the particular writer happened to hold the opinion that the Gothic was drivel).

I get the fact that many of the critics weren't impressed, or that some people were already largely inclined to the view of the work as a White Elephant and the Proms performance merely confirmed that: chacun à son goût. I'm allowed not to be interested in other people's disappointed reaction, and to concentrate on the positive ones.

I hope listening to 5:4's FLACs is a rewarding experience for you – some of us have already had revelatory experiences from this music under far less ideal conditions (listening to the Lenard and Boult recordings). Having sung in the Gothic once, it's safe to say that any recording fails to live up to the experience of hearing it live in concert, so best of luck.

Regards, Philip

PS As for this thread "preaching to the choir", if you look at my picture it's the reverse: I'm in the choir, and I set a lot of store by singing in time, in tune, and with good tone.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Dear Sforzando.

I know exactly what I mean when I say 'battle'. Words are my trade and no-one has to teach me anything about metaphor. Of course it's a battle! It's the Blakean 'mental fight'. The 'enemy' you have to subdue is not the person, it is his or her laziness, prejudice, or understandable incomprehension. Art isn't natural, it is a cultural artifact that, when it is really new, disturbs the order of things (tradition, canon, accepted criteria), and thus needs explaining. Such a work, by its nature, sometimes does not, at once, speak for itself. And that is when battle commences.

I know I don't have to explain this to you, but as you seem to have forgotten these truisms, I thought of reminding you. If you think they don't apply to Brian's case, then that's your decision. But I find it a shaky one. Nor have you refuted any of the arguments I offered, because you know they are irrefutable and it is, I think, simply the fact you don't like Brian's music. So be it. But don't attack the, admittedly, heated admirers. Attack the music for aesthetic reasons!

Or if you don't think it worth your time, why bother complaining here? I don't invade a thread devoted to a composer I dislike - I'd let the lovers be and at the most would say that I can't see what all the fuss is about but that they are welcome to him.

Discussion closed (for me).

P.S. Adorno did a brilliant hatchet job on Stravinsky in his 'New Philosophy of Music'. It taught me something about him the lovers can't. If you did the same with Brian, I would be very happy.

[Klaatu]

If you genuinely believe Brian is a great composer........

Well, as one of the Brian enthusiasts who had the effrontery to criticise a music journalist who was able to dismiss The Gothic after "listening to a bit of it" (yes, I know, how utterly unreasonable of me!), I feel I must add this:

It is not the case that all those who feel Brian is neglected or sidelined also feel that he is a "great composer" or an artist of Beethovenian stature. My own opinion of him, stated a few pages back, is that he is a "significant talent" - that's quite different. If I had to place him in a league table with other British composers, I would rank him with personalities such as Holst or Bax. Important figures, but no Mozarts.

Like Holst and Bax, Brian was not a world-bestriding genius but an artist who, in his best works, was occasionally touched by genius. For me, these "best works" - from Brian's current recorded oeuvre - are symphonies 6, 8, 10 and 16. Perhaps if these were given an occasional outing at the Proms (the latter two works would each take up barely 20 minutes of the Prommers' time), we would have a far better perspective on this composer - rather than repeatedly reinforcing his image as an amateurish nutjob who wrote ludicrously over-ambitious White Elephants. (For all that The Gothic is also touched by genius, its extravagances have been its - and Brian's - undoing.)

[John Whitmore]

I suppose I should ask what is the etiquette of using real names here in this forum? Some people such as myself and J.Z.H. are using real names; others are using minimal-concealment pseudonyms (e.g. Johnwh51 who would seem to be John Wh... in real life) or are acknowledging the use of their real names despite a non-obvious connection between name and pseudonym. (I suppose there's a FAQ to point out to me?)

As for your later post about the BBC not filming because the compromised of the production schedule would not meet their high standards for production values; that is very understandable and highly regrettable. But I do hope however they had some fixed cameras in place just to record what was happening (neutral direction).

Hi Philip,
Johnwh51 is me, John Whitmore. I played violin with the LSSO hence my interest (sort of) in Brian. I don't do etiquette so John is fine. Mr Whitmore is better. Sir John or Lord John would be nice but untruthful. I agree with your point about the BBC. It can't have been too difficult to run 2 or 3 static cameras for 2 hours and then do a mix, albeit limited, following the event. A sort of up market home movie. Let's see if anything turns up.

[Brian]

P.S. Adorno did a brilliant hatchet job on Stravinsky in his 'New Philosophy of Music'. It taught me something about him the lovers can't. If you did the same with Brian, I would be very happy.

Which reminds me: I've finally translated Rene Leibowitz' essay "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World" into English, if there would be any interest in seeing that...

[Philip Legge]

John,

I think it would be possible to get used to Sir John in the right circumstances! My thoughts exactly; the camera positions already exist, so just leave them running for the two and a half hours for the sake of the BBC archive.

Brian,

I'm sort of dreading the Leibowitz essay. Would it be like Dr David Wright's essay on Benjamin Britten? (I discovered that website via another forum poster, and have been repressing shudders ever since.)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@Brian Yes.

My friend Michiel got another seat because of that bl**dy camera they didn't use.

[vandermolen]

Not sure if this has been posted here - but lots of interesting discussion about the Gothic + a useful summary at the end of the different reviews of the concert.

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2011/07/18/havergal-brian-gothic-symphony-at-the-proms/

[John Whitmore]

I've just been sharing some Facebook banter with an old friend of mine, Stephen Whittaker, who timped on the Unicorn LSSO 10/21 LP. I thought you would enjoy the thread.

John: Just listening again to the 3rd movement of Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony from the Proms performance on Sunday. Tremendous playing and wonderful music. Martyn Brabbins in superb form. Best version in my collection by far. Beats Lenard, Boult and the live Brisbane recording by quite a margin. Can't get it out of my head!!!!!
Steve: What about the LSO performance with Ole Schmidt? I believe that has a few things to recommend it, not least the fabulous xylophone playing of.... Oh no, there I go again.....
John: Were you doing xylo on the Schmidt? I'm impressed. Your timps on 10 and 21 are pretty good too!
Steve: One young chap in the front row of the chorus was evidently particularly impressed with the xylo playing, as he fainted dead away during the performance and came crashing down into the perc section. I well remember you behaving with prodigious intelligence, dignity and gravitas during our youth orchestra years. Oh no, wait a minute........
John: Must have been someone else. Are you still hitting things with sticks at the back of orchestras?
Steve: Absolutely. Beats going to all the bother of learning a musical instrument.

Is there a recording of the Schmidt to be found anywhere? (Question aimed mostly towards the direction of Delft in the Dutch alps)

[John Whitmore]

John,

I think it would be possible to get used to Sir John in the right circumstances! My thoughts exactly; the camera positions already exist, so just leave them running for the two and a half hours for the sake of the BBC archive.

Moving away from HB for a moment, a friend of mine is into motor sport (you know, glorified traffic jams) and many years ago the British Sports Car champion was a bloke called Sir John Whitmore so my friend always called me Sir John. One evening at a huge birthday party (real up market effort) at the Granada Studios in Manchester I walked in with my wife and spotted this motor sport fanatic chatting to a group of people so we strolled up to them in posh frocks and bow ties, champers in hands. My pal James said "hello Sir John" and turned to an American couple and announced "Can I introduce you to Sir John and Lady Angela". This was bad enough but the best bit is still to come. The American lady grabbed my hand and did a courtsey (spelling?) and her husband bowed. How I kept a straight face and didn't wet my pants I never know. Anyway that's the end of the short intermission so now back to good old Havergal......

[Brian]

Brian,

I'm sort of dreading the Leibowitz essay. Would it be like Dr David Wright's essay on Benjamin Britten? (I discovered that website via another forum poster, and have been repressing shudders ever since.)

No, it's not like Dr David Wright, in that it restrains itself to mere musical critique. The most personal it gets is "someone at school had to be a dunce"!

I'm thinking of posting the article on my blog as its own page. When I do this I'll link to it in the GMG thread about Sibelius...

And perhaps now we really will be back to discussing Havergal Brian. Sorry about that, Sir John 

[John Whitmore]

And perhaps now we really will be back to discussing Havergal Brian. Sorry about that, Sir John;
[/quote]


I agree and don't forget to bow when you type my name.

[Guido]

Which reminds me: I've finally translated Rene Leibowitz' essay "Sibelius, the Worst Composer in the World" into English, if there would be any interest in seeing that...

Yes please!

[John Whitmore]

Johnwh51 has now transformed into John Whitmore. All very Doctor Who. The profile picture is one of my heroes - Eric Pinkett.

[John Whitmore]

Here's an interesting Gothic forum on the BBC proms page. 73 comments so far:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2011/july-17/5?postId=109708012

[vandermolen]

Moving away from HB for a moment, a friend of mine is into motor sport (you know, glorified traffic jams) and many years ago the British Sports Car champion was a bloke called Sir John Whitmore so my friend always called me Sir John. One evening at a huge birthday party (real up market effort) at the Granada Sudios in Manchester I walked in with my wife and spotted this motor sport fanatic chatting to a group of people so we strolled up to them in posh frocks and bow ties, champers in hands. My pal James said "hello Sir John" and turned to an American couple and announced "Can I introduce you to Sir John and Lady Angela". This was bad enough but the best bit is still to come. The American lady grabbed my hand and did a courtsey (spelling?) and her husband bowed. How I kept a straight face and didn't wet my pants I never know. Anyway that's the end of the short intermission so now back to good old Havergal......

OT

My brother, whilst staying in a hotel in Bruxelles received a letter from a friend, jokingly addressed to 'Lord Peter Davis'. At dinner that night, the Head waiter came up to him (my brother said that he had a horrible realisation of what was about to happen), gave a ceremonial bow and enquired 'is everything to your liking Your Lordship?'

[springrite]

OT

My brother, whilst staying in a hotel in Bruxelles received a letter from a friend, jokingly addressed to 'Lord Peter Davis'. At dinner that night, the Head waiter came up to him (my brother said that he had a horrible realisation of what was about to happen), gave a ceremonial bow and enquired 'is everything to your liking Your Lordship?'

Next time he should aim for "Your Royal Highness".

A good friends of my with the surname of Mao was not long ago made Chairman of the Board of a corporation. Now he can be Chairman Mao.

I have the Marco Polo recording of the Gothic ready for after dinner music, to be listened to about two hours from now.

[vandermolen]

Next time he should aim for "Your Royal Highness".

A good friends of my with the surname of Mao was not long ago made Chairman of the Board of a corporation. Now he can be Chairman Mao.

I have the Marco Polo recording of the Gothic ready for after dinner music, to be listened to about two hours from now.

Kimi is growing up! 

[springrite]

Kimi is growing up! 

Yes, but she doesn't like Brian. She loves Boulez for some reason.