Havergal Brian.

[Dundonnell]

Can I put in a good word for Nos. 13 and 14?

I have had an ongoing argument/mild difference of opinion( ) with Malcolm MacDonald for over thirty years about these two symphonies, in particular No.14. When he wrote Vol. II of his study of the symphonies he rated them substantially below others in the canon. The fourteenth he described as "on the whole a laboured piece that relies far too much on gesture than on substance(either of material or symphonic argument)...". (I believe that he may have somewhat modified that view over time )

Well..ok the criticism may be valid but I am a self-confessed sucker for the 'grand gesture' and a bit of orchestral bombast is just fine by me

Referring to the earlier discussion of coupling Brian with other composers' music I was puzzled by the decision of Dutton to couple the Cello Concerto with the two pieces by York Bowen and Alan Bush. Actually the Bush Concert Suite turned out to be a fine and impressive work but the Bowen Rhapsody was a strange choice imo. Surely it would have made more sense to have got Wallfisch to do the Simpson Cello Concerto as a coupling. That work is dedicated to Wallfisch but has never been recorded. Simpson, of course, was the man who virtually single-handed championed Brian's cause in the 50s and 60s at the BBC.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I must say - it won't surprise you -  I liked the Bowen very much. Ravishing piece. I didn't care much for the Bush! Will wonders never cease? 


But I am in complete agreement, as you know, with your assessment of No. 14, one of last ample and grand of Brian's symphonies.

[Lethevich]

I like the eclectic programme of that cello concerto disc, perhaps they were looking to reel in multiple fanbases? However, I do find it strange that the Simpson concerto remains unrecorded, considering a) most of his output has been covered, b) Wallfisch is a serial performer and recorder as it is.

Still, something to look forward to... eventually

[Dundonnell]

I believe that there MAY be a possibility of the Simpson being recorded in the relatively near future....and coupled with some Brian too

Johan...don't get me started about York Bowen

[John Whitmore]

Johan's latest Brisbane downloads are stupendous. He called the whole thing a miracle and I can't disagree. What qualities has it got going for it? Enthusiasm, dedication, commitment, excellent sound quality, clarity of execution a sense of occasion plus a good overall structural feel to it. Very listenable indeed. Music is so strange - I enjoy Schmidt because the LSO just sails through it as one would expect. I enjoy Brisbane for entirely different reasons. That's because there is a sense of being stretched - there are no major clangers ( a few brass fluffs apart) but the orchestral playing, as good as it is, has minor incidents along the way, some clumsy gear changes and the feeling that many of the players are clinging on for dear life. It's this sense of danger that I enjoy about it. A bit like watching a tightrope walker over a shark tank. Similar in many ways to Loughran vs Brabbins in symphony 10. Brabbins is clearly superior but Loughran has a special feel to it. Sometimes orchestral playing can be too polished at the expense of being spontaneous. The Brisbane Gothic sounds very spontaneous indeed. I urge everyone to take a listen.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Glad you like it, John. Yes, I think the whole performance is the most persuasive so far. It's a real roller coaster.

[John Whitmore]

Despite my very slight misgivings with regards to the Brisbane orchestra, I'm making comparisons with the LSO. I hope I didn't give the impression that the playing is bad. It certainly isn't. It's very, very good!!!! Had I bought this CD set for 15 quid I would be very satisfied.

[Guido]

Glad you like it, John. Yes, I think the whole performance is the most persuasive so far. It's a real roller coaster.

So you put Brisbane above Brabbins and Schmidt?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Guido, I compare Brabbins and Curro in the quoted post below... All in all, I think they are even. Both have their (im)perfections. And both are needed for our understanding. I must admit, though, that I find the loss of pitch by the choir in the Judex very distressing (it struck me in the hall, too), and I notice I avoid listening to this movement because of it... Also, I have my problems with the tempi Brabbins chooses for the orchestral interludes. So, sensational as it may sound (and in spite of the opening of the Judex being rather terrible), I prefer the Curro at the moment. Especially when you listen to the better recording, the results he got are simply amazing.  As for the Schmidt, I find him a bit matter-of-fact. Curro and Brabbins have a far greater understanding of Brian's idiom.

I have been listening to the Brabbins Gothic several times the past few days. And I must say that, overall, Curro's Gothic can really hold its own, which makes 'Brisbane' even more of a miracle than it already was. The 'Curse' of The Gothic?! More of a blessing, I should say.


I think Curro and Brabbins are equally good in Part 1. Curro is faster in the Lento, which lessens the grandeur of its climax somewhat. Though I have been thinking that could have been intentional, Curro wanting to save everything for the tremendous conclusion of the Vivace. Brabbins takes the Lento more slowly, he is akin to Boult in this, though with the latter you get a better sense of sheer weight. The drawback of the close miking in the Brabbins is that the music is very often in close-up, where you'd sometimes prefer a total shot = a better aural perspective. The triumphal march that crowns the Vivace has more swagger in Curro, Brabbins is too fast in my opinion.


As for part 2 - there the two are about even, too, though I prefer Curro in the Judex. His chorus may begin by having lost its way, recovery is quick, and I find Curro's shaping of the movement more exciting than Brabbins', who takes the first interlude a tad too slow and in the second interlude, which should have a brisker pace overall, suddenly accelerates halfway through. Also, the choir in the Brabbins Gothic gets into real trouble navigating the fiendish harmonies and is only saved by the soprano. But the soloists of the Brabbins Gothic are better than Curro's. And the way Brabbins shapes the final movement is impeccable. His 'In te, Domine, speravi' is the most moving account ever. As for the concluding cataclysm, when I listen to my sister's film, the sound is better than in the radio recording! I really hope the sound will be further improved if a CD is made of this. I find the Brisbane Gothic stronger in this particular passage.


All in all, both readings are equally good, I think. And both deserve to be put on CD, though neither is perfect. The 'definitive' Gothic is yet to come...

[Luke]

Guido, I compare Brabbins and Curro in the quoted post below... All in all, I think they are even. Both have their (im)perfections. And both are needed for our understanding. I must admit, though, that I find the loss of pitch by the choir in the Judex very distressing (it struck me in the hall, too), and I notice I avoid listening to this movement because of it... Also, I have my problems with the tempi Brabbins chooses for the orchestral interludes. So, sensational as it may sound (and in spite of the opening of the Judex being rather terrible), I prefer the Curro at the moment. Especially when you listen to the better recording, the results he got are simply amazing.  As for the Schmidt, I find him a bit matter-of-fact. Curro and Brabbins have a far greater understanding of Brian's idiom.

I don't/didn't mind the loss of pitch in the Brabbins Judex per se. After all, if pitch loss happens gradually the listener only really notices at the second of transition back to pitch, and that's not too awful. It happens in the Lenard, when the trumpet comes in we have a moment of recalibration, and theit's fine - in fact, it just goes to highlight that the passage is bloody hard and was sung properly; rather as John was saying with regard to the various orchestras, sometimes it is good to hear how hard the music is! No, what I minded in the Brabbins was the organ attempt to keep pitch which a) was obtrusive; b) failed; and c) because it was obtruvie and failed, created some ugly moments. A shame they decided to do that, I think, and the only reason for doing so that I can think of is not so much to avoid pitch slippage but to avoid pitch slippage that is so far that those cavernously deep basses become unsingable.

[John Whitmore]

So you put Brisbane above Brabbins and Schmidt?

No I don't. It's very exciting and a good memento of a super live performance but for repeated listening it has too many less assured moments. Schmidt and Brabbins just happen to have superior pro orchestras and it shows. I will return to John Curro's version and still enjoy it though. It's a treat sonically.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I don't/didn't mind the loss of pitch in the Brabbins Judex per se. After all, if pitch loss happens gradually the listener only really notices at the second of transition back to pitch, and that's not too awful. It happens in the Lenard, when the trumpet comes in we have a moment of recalibration, and theit's fine - in fact, it just goes to highlight that the passage is bloody hard and was sung properly; rather as John was saying with regard to the various orchestras, sometimes it is good to hear how hard the music is! No, what I minded in the Brabbins was the organ attempt to keep pitch which a) was obtrusive; b) failed; and c) because it was obtruvie and failed, created some ugly moments. A shame they decided to do that, I think, and the only reason for doing so that I can think of is not so much to avoid pitch slippage but to avoid pitch slippage that is so far that those cavernously deep basses become unsingable.

That last point is very interesting, hadn't realised that... When I was in the hall, I was thinking how perfectly everything went... at exactly that moment the organ entered to support the choir, creating an excrucating dissonance which Brian for once didn't happen to have written...  I hope engineers will be able to remove it if a CD is made, because the 're-calibration' by the soprano later on is far less jarring/nerve-wracking.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

No I don't. It's very exciting and a good memento of a super live performance but for repeated listening it has too many less assured moments. Schmidt and Brabbins just happen to have superior pro orchestras and it shows. I will return to John Curro's version and still enjoy it though. It's a treat sonically.

In the Brisbane orchestra there are many pros, too. Musicians from all over Australia and even farther afield gathered especially to play 'The Gothic'. For free. Many of them were pupils of conductor John Curro and now play in professional orchestras all over Asia.


It appears I'm on the side of the Australian LSSO, John!


P.S. The nice thing of being able to compare performances is - you get an inkling of what the ideal performance would be. If a conductor can combine the fire of John Curro and the laser precision of Martyn Brabbins (who both possess the sense of steady progression that Sir Adrian Boult has, too), we'll have a 'Gothic' for the ages...

[John Whitmore]

In the Brisbane orchestra there are many pros, too. Musicians from all over Australia and even farther afield gathered especially to play 'The Gothic'. For free. Many of them were pupils of conductor John Curro and now play in professional orchestras all over Asia.


It appears I'm on the side of the Australian LSSO, John!


P.S. The nice thing of being able to compare performances is - you get an inkling of what the ideal performance would be. If a conductor can combine the fire of John Curro and the laser precision of Martyn Brabbins (who both possess the sense of steady progression that Sir Adrian Boult has, too), we'll have a 'Gothic' for the ages...

I'm on the side of the Aussie LSSO too Johan (good description!). They played really well and I accept that there were many fine pros taking part but listening objectively it simply doesn't compare with a world class orchestra such as the LSO does it? Seriously?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'm on the side of the Aussie LSSO too Johan (good description!). They played really well and I accept that there were many fine pros taking part but listening objectively it simply doesn't compare with a world class orchestra such as the LSO does it? Seriously?

It's a bit difficult to compare the two, for the simple fact that the LSO is a band with a tradition and the 'Gothic Symphony Orchestra' an ensemble with neither past nor future, and only that one unique moment to be one. Considering that, Curro got much more than he perhaps expected. But technically, yes, the LSO are more polished. But as I find Curro more attuned to Brian, I prefer him to Schmidt.


I can't wait to see 'The Curse of The Gothic'!

[Albion]

I have to say that if there ever was a recording made (highly unlikely) in which the choir kept perfect pitch throughout the long a capella sections with every single strand of the intricate choral polyphony brought out in glorious well-differentiated technicolour, I would be  frankly depressed and really rather bored.

Surely the Gothic is all about striving after the unattainable. It is truly wonderful to hear up to 800 individuals straining every sinew to simply attempt a communication of Brian's visionary writing: I have absolutely no problems with the Brabbins performance or indeed any other in which there is a sag in pitch - what is important is unanimity of attack (indicating a unanimity of experience), which is what this 2011 performance (and the Schmidt, come to that) had in spades!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I take your point (and Luke's). In the Lenard, where they could have done re-takes, the choir sag in pitch, too. And I could and can live with that. But the Judex movement is central to the work as a whole (and central to my appreciation and enjoyment of it). It should have an iron, crushing inexorability, and for me, alas, that effect is a bit spoiled, not only by the choral hiccups, but also by the organ, making things worse by trying to do good (as Luke says). The tempo, too, is too slow, though the final apocalypse is thrilling... With the Te Deum laudamus and the Te ergo quaesumus I have no quarrel at all.

It seems the contrasting and comparing has started in earnest. Which is all to the good.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Question for those who have the score of 'The Gothic' - in the bar (C major) before the climactic F# major chord in the Vivace I can hear the bass drum and long African drum (?) pounding away in the Brabbins, but not in the Curro... What did Brian write?

[Luke]

I have the misprint-ridden Crantz score, so the instrument names are chopped off to the left on this page!. Nevertheless it is clear what Brian wants. The percussion section here reads :

-Drum (which is clearly the side drum part)

  I
-Drums (this is the line you are talking about, so here you should be hearing two bass drums in alternation)
  II

Cymb.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Then Brabbins is right. It's a wonderfully thunderous sound!