Havergal Brian.

[Brian]

In the meantime,avoid the front seats.

Yes, those are the splash zone.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Safely returned from Antwerp - nice, relaxed place.


A friend of mine on Facebook thought the online Gothic article in The Economist was abridged, as the ending seemed rather rushed. I checked the print edition today at the station - no difference.

[DaveF]

I see the Economist article is already repeating some "facts" about the Gothic and the performance that seem to have become urban myths since the event: the Gothic is a war symphony (really?  The Leningrad is a war symphony; The Tigers is a war opera) and: there was an audible gasp from the audience when the lights came on and the choirs stood up (no there wasn't; there was an audible swish of choristers' clothing - the only sound from the audience was me groaning at the unbelievable tackiness of it, not to mention the bad timing of having soloists walking distractingly across the stage while Brian was fortissimo-ing his way through C - F# - Dm.)

DF

[cilgwyn]

I wonder what other movies Brian has unintentionally scored? Mahler meets Jaws is a classic.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

@DaveF


I have noticed, too, how several critics have claimed the Gothic is a reaction to the First World War. I know Malcolm MacDonald also sees the work as such, but with him it's an interpretation, whereas those critics present it as fact. The (dubious) advantage is: it can function as a key to understanding, it can even make the Gothic look more 'respectable' and worthy of serious attention. The Gothic could well come to be seen as one of the great works inspired by the Great War. Whether that would be true, is a difficult question, as Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs! Still, if the Great War connection helps people appreciate the Gothic, so be it! This is a (possible and temporary) misconception I can live with...


The choir standing up and the appearance of the soloists during the climactic moment of the Vivace was indeed distracting (a bit). And there was no 'audible gasp', how could it be over all that 'racket'? I personally didn't find the effect 'tacky', though. I enjoyed the drama of it. But that's me.

[DaveF]

Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs!

Also claimed as a source of inspiration by two other great English eccentrics, John Cowper Powys and Gerard Manley Hopkins.  Ploughed fields have much to answer for.

[Mirror Image]

I used to think that about dear old 'Uncle Ralph' until Tony Palmer disabused me with all that stuff about RVW's sex life

I really disliked Palmer's film about RVW. Not because of it's controversial subject matter, but rather with overall presentation of the film. It was a complete unorganized nightmare. Two and half hours of pure, unadulterated chaos. I had high hopes for this documentary and really wanted to learn more about one of my favorite composer's life, but I'm afraid all I walked away with was a bad taste in mouth. A missed opportunity I say.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Also claimed as a source of inspiration by two other great English eccentrics, John Cowper Powys and Gerard Manley Hopkins.

Brilliant connections! Not unsurprisingly, both Hopkins and JCP are among my favourites... Hopkins uses the furrow and the plough - from memory - in 'Hurrahing in Harvest' and 'The Windhover'. Where, in all his millions of words, are JCP's descriptions? I personally have always linked the rugged 'sprung rhythm' of Hopkins with the same phenomenon in Brian.

[5against4]

I have noticed, too, how several critics have claimed the Gothic is a reaction to the First World War. I know Malcolm MacDonald also sees the work as such, but with him it's an interpretation, whereas those critics present it as fact. The (dubious) advantage is: it can function as a key to understanding, it can even make the Gothic look more 'respectable' and worthy of serious attention. The Gothic could well come to be seen as one of the great works inspired by the Great War. Whether that would be true, is a difficult question, as Brian's main inspiration for the Gothic seems to have been the serried ranks of  'freshly ploughed fields' in the Sussex Downs! Still, if the Great War connection helps people appreciate the Gothic, so be it! This is a (possible and temporary) misconception I can live with...

Speaking personally, i must say i find many of the comments i've read concerning the Gothic & the Great War to be entirely spurious. One can argue pretty convincingly that it has its militaristic passages (although even that is an interpretation, mind you), but trying to extend that notion to encapsulate the work as a whole seems ridiculous. The only connection to war that i can ascertain from the piece, & i mentioned this in my article, is a sonic allusion to the aesthetic 'liberation' that one finds all across Europe (most notably in architecture) in the wake of the Great War. But while that brand of utopian expressionism could arguably only really happen because of war, it is absolutely not about war, & likewise with the Gothic. The quirky, non-sequitur-ridden freedom that Brian exhibits in the piece, to my mind at least, projects very much more of that liberated spirit than the attempt to create some kind of war-scarred epic. The latter would most definitely bore me to tears, & the Gothic thankfully doesn't do that.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I agree with you, 5:4. The Gothic isn't a work of mourning and remembrance, like John Foulds's 'World Requiem' or Frank Bridge's 'Oration' (a great cello concerto in all but name), it is a much larger conception. It forges ahead as much as it looks back, sometimes in sorrow. It is a visionary arrow into the future - now?

[Dundonnell]

I see the Economist article is already repeating some "facts" about the Gothic and the performance that seem to have become urban myths since the event: the Gothic is a war symphony (really?  The Leningrad is a war symphony; The Tigers is a war opera) and: there was an audible gasp from the audience when the lights came on and the choirs stood up (no there wasn't; there was an audible swish of choristers' clothing - the only sound from the audience was me groaning at the unbelievable tackiness of it, not to mention the bad timing of having soloists walking distractingly across the stage while Brian was fortissimo-ing his way through C - F# - Dm.)

DF

Like Johan, I didn't find the moment when the choirs stood up and the soloists came on stage in the slightest 'tacky'. It was imo opinion quite breathtakingly spectacular.

HOWEVER...I do take your point about 'distracting'. I had been building myself up for that great cadence and-in retrospect-the full sonic grandeur was lessened in its impact by the very spectacular of what was happening with the choirs and soloists.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

From: Havergal Brian, 'The Mahler Revival' (1930) in: Havergal Brian on Music, Volume Two: European and American Music, ed. Malcolm MacDonald, p. 83-85:


"Was there an absence of vitality in the music that caused the first impressions of the Bruckner and Mahler Symphonies to fade away so quickly? Such interest as remained from the pioneer performances has been kept alive by a few enthusiasts who possessed the scores. It is entirely a speculative question if the same repeated performances which followed the new works by Strauss had been given to Bruckner and Mahler, whether they would have just as quickly obtained a sympathetic and interested following as did Strauss. Supposing that the symphonic poems of Strauss and the symphonies of Tchaikovsky had met with the same indifference as those of Bruckner and Mahler, would there ever have been a public clamouring for them? A symphonic work cannot be thoroughly enjoyed or appreciated until it is really known. Intimate understanding is only gained by repeated hearing."


"We feel quite sanguine of the ultimate success of the Bruckner and Mahler symphonies."

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Karl reacted to this on the Bruckner thread, wondering why Brian singles out symphonic music. I replied that, yes,  chamber music demands as much, if not more, close attention and that Brian probably shows his symphonic bias...

[Lethevich]

I wonder whether he meant the statement specifically to apply to "maximalist" orchestral music in the context of an article about Mahler. Robert Simpson mentioned that his chamber music is much better performed than his symphonies because of the nature of their selection and reheharsal as a lengthy personal project of internalisation by the musicians involved, and perhaps chamber music does fare better in terms of initial advocacy than orchestral pieces which often only receive one rehearsal.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I wonder whether he meant the statement specifically to apply to "maximalist" orchestral music in the context of an article about Mahler. Robert Simpson mentioned that his chamber music is much better performed than his symphonies because of the nature of their selection and reheharsal as a lengthy personal project of internalisation by the musicians involved, and perhaps chamber music does fare better in terms of initial advocacy than orchestral pieces which often only receive one rehearsal.

Yes, there is that context, too, of course. That's why I copied as much as I did. I found Brian's observation so remarkably applicable to the reception his own Gothic got in some quarters, a few weeks ago...

[Brian]

Yes, there is that context, too, of course. That's why I copied as much as I did. I found Brian's observation so remarkably applicable to the reception his own Gothic got in some quarters, a few weeks ago...

Well, if we are cast in the Havergal Brian role, that's rather flattering.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, if we are cast in the Havergal Brian role, that's rather flattering.

I wish I could be as 'sanguine' of his 'ultimate success' as he was of Bruckner's and Mahler's, though!

[DavidW]

NPR played highlights of the Gothic symphony from the bbc this morning, I caught some of it.  A good stirring performance I think.  The host said that it was an event because the Gothic usually only gets performed once a generation, and that it was hard to get tickets.   So I should applaud you all for getting tickets, but I guess y'all ordered them months go!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

NPR played highlights of the Gothic symphony from the bbc this morning, I caught some of it.  A good stirring performance I think.  The host said that it was an event because the Gothic usually only gets performed once a generation, and that it was hard to get tickets.   So I should applaud you all for getting tickets, but I guess y'all ordered them months go!

Long live NPR!


Jeffrey (vandermolen), Luke and Brian were promming, so they were standing in the Arena. They bought their tickets after the official sale started. Colin, Albion and I bought them earlier (and at a higher cost) through another site...


P.S. Forgot DaveF. Don't know how he got his ticket, though...

[karlhenning]

. . . Colin, Albion and I bought them earlier (and at a higher cost) through another site...

One often tries to economize, of course. Still, there are events for which you pay a premium, and consider it money entirely well spent.