Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Indeedie, there's nothing particularly "vital" about it, and that is a word that I associate with Brian at his best.

Good point. In his best pieces you feel a tremendous sense of urgency. Das Siegeslied sounds like the work of a state composer without a state.

I concur with you're choices. Although, No's 3 and 7 are two of my favourites,they are,it seems to me,problematic,in various ways. Though,that only adds to their fascination,for me. No 4 sounds very impressive in the Poole performance,but I always have a problem with the final movement,which seems to go on far too long for it's own good. There are allot of marvellous ideas,but also a proprtion of empty tub thumping bombast as well,which worries me. Still,that wonderful final surge of voices right at the end is well worth the wait. I remember on my old Dolby cassette copy,you actually had to turn the tape over (at that point) to hear it!

I love 3 and 7, too. But we need more performances to make them realise their full potential (both CD recordings, Friend and Mackerras, are not as good as the BBC radio performances by Pope and Newstone)... Yes, that final movement of Das Siegeslied is too long and too mechanical in its structure, though there are some very exciting moments there!

[eyeresist]

The (perhaps unjust) fate of a Naxos conductor.

Fine recordings of Bliss, Bax, Dyson, Sullivan, Lambert, Moeran, Alwyn, Rawsthorne, Holst (though his Planets wasn't great), Vaughan Williams, Delius, Stanford, Walton.... What does the poor fellow have to do?

Okay, that's enough - apologies for off topic.

[cilgwyn]

When they do record No's 3 & 7 again I hope it's not Naxos! My dream label would be Chandos,but I get a feeling they're not very keen on Brian.
The final movement of Das Siegeslied is very rum-ti-tum. Almost like A British answer to Khatchaturian at his worst,although,according to John,Khatchaturian doesn't have a best!
I'm referring to the bombast,I hasten to add. Whatever you say about Brian's music,it doesn't sound Armenian!

[cilgwyn]

If there is one symphony or work by Brian that I doesn't hold my attention all the way through,No 4 is definately THE one!
John,I'll have a look at the cassette again just to make sure it's Bruckners 8th!!!

[John Whitmore]

Sorry to go off topic but the Hattoff collection goes on. This the double LP issued by Opera Viva in 1985. There's some lovely stuff on here by Holst, MacCunn, Erlanger, Corder, Delius, Boughton, Stanford, Thomas and Cowan. My own particular favourite is Ethel Smyth's Boatswain's Mate - very touching. The recording was made with a single Calrec soundfield microphone (as used by Unicorn) and sounds wonderful. This can be burned onto 2 CDs (CD 1 tracks 1 to 6 and the remainder on CD2). Artwork and track listings are included. You will enjoy this but please be warned that the orchestral playing is only adequate at best:
http://www.mediafire.com/?p0bpcig08kub6

[cilgwyn]

Don't apologise. I was doing a bit of tub thumping myself. I've always fancied hearing a bit more of 'The Boatswains Mate'.

[Dundonnell]

Once again David Lloyd Jones is completely overlooked 

Not if my cd shelves are any indication

But, I agree, I should have mentioned him.  It's just that I don't see him recording much say a decade from now.

[John Whitmore]

When they do record No's 3 & 7 again I hope it's not Naxos! My dream label would be Chandos,but I get a feeling they're not very keen on Brian.
The final movement of Das Siegeslied is very rum-ti-tum. Almost like A British answer to Khatchaturian at his worst,although,according to John,Khatchaturian doesn't have a best!
I'm referring to the bombast,I hasten to add. Whatever you say about Brian's music,it doesn't sound Armenian!

Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.

[Dundonnell]

Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.

You don't mince your words do you

Khachaturian and Bruckner Nor there's a couple

The Khachaturian 3rd Symphony is-probably-the worst symphony ever composed....agreed.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

You don't mince your words do you

Khachaturian and Bruckner Nor there's a couple

The Khachaturian 3rd Symphony is-probably-the worst symphony ever composed....agreed.

I love Khatchaturian's Second Symphony... I expect a thunderbolt from Delph! 


John, I have listened to a few of the operatic fragments by Opera Viva - interesting stuff!

[karlhenning]

Makes even me almost want to defend Khatchaturian . . . .

[John Whitmore]

Makes even me almost want to defend Khatchaturian . . . .

I'll back off a bit. The Sabre Dance is OK.

[karlhenning]

Sure, they think so in the sports bars of Buffalo, New York.

[Brian]

Khachaturian at his worst is the same as Khachaturian at his best. Pure bilge.

Angryface! The Sabre Dance I think near garbage-level, but the three concertos are very good. And you can't possibly accuse this (my favorite Khach) of bombast.

[cilgwyn]

I thought the worst symphony ever was Lev Knipper's Fourth?!!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I thought the worst symphony ever was Lev Knipper's Fourth?!!!

Symphony No. 4 "Poem for the Komsomol Fighters" in D major after Guseyev for soloists, chorus and orchestra opus 41


But:


According to secret documents revealed in 2008, during the Second World War a secret plan existed in the USSR designed by the Kremlin in case that Moscow would fall into Nazi hands. Under the elaborate plan, ballerinas and circus acrobats were armed with grenades and pistols and ordered to assassinate German generals if they attempted to organise concerts and other celebrations upon taking the city. Lev Knipper was charged with the responsibility of killing Hitler if he got the opportunity.


He couldn't have been all that bad...

[Luke]

Hell, I really like the 4th!  I think the score to that and no 3 are the Brian scores I would most like to get my mitts on, they are so full of fabulous, massive, complex, characterful sounds.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hell, I really like the 4th!    I think the score to that and no 3 are the Brian scores I would most like to get my mitts on, they are so full of fabulous, massive, complex, characterful sounds.

I wish I could beam up the score of the Third. Alas.


But do you really find the final movement of Das Siegeslied wholly convincing? I wish Brian hadn't returned to the opening march but had sprung something (apparently) new on us to end the work.

[Luke]

No, I think it is the only possible conclusion (though, I don't have Brian's genius, maybe he could have thought up something else). To me that opening is perfect at the beginning - in that its huge + blatantly simplistic confidence is undercut by the 'realistic' and modernist doubt and brutality that follows. Thatg is a real masterstrke. But there is a psychological truth in its return, too (to me, anyway), and a real horror, too. All that bloodthirstiness is swept away at the last minute by a return of the stupidly simplistic, triumphant Vision of Victory. The two different kinds of music are totally different, the sylistic contrast is gigantic and actually quite nasty, and therefore the return I find quite shocking, as if it is a kind of let's-not-tell-them-the-facts propaganda (even though we now know the facts), understood against what has come before, is startlingly effective.

Sorry, very garbled, I have to go out!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

No, I think it is the only possible conclusion (though, I don't have Brian's genius, maybe he could have thought up something else). To me that opening is perfect at the beginning - in that its huge + blatantly simplistic confidence is undercut by the 'realistic' and modernist doubt and brutality that follows. Thatg is a real masterstrke. But there is a psychological truth in its return, too (to me, anyway), and a real horror, too. All that bloodthirstiness is swept away at the last minute by a return of the stupidly simplistic, triumphant Vision of Victory. The two different kinds of music are totally different, the sylistic contrast is gigantic and actually quite nasty, and therefore the return I find quite shocking, as if it is a kind of let's-not-tell-them-the-facts propaganda (even though we now know the facts), understood against what has come before, is startlingly effective.

Sorry, very garbled, I have to go out!

Garbled it may be (not), it's still interesting. I think I'm waiting for the conductor who can put your view across!