Havergal Brian.

[Sergeant Rock]

I just 'found' a performance of the Tenth symphony,conducted by Stanley Pope,on the HBS website.

It's here:
http://www.havergalbrian.org/download.htm

Thanks, guys. And thank you, HB Society 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I can't get over the ending of Symphony No. 10... Those shivering ponticelli strings, that frail violin solo, like a lone voice in a cold immensity, and then - those final chords, as if something takes you under its wings.


Incredibly moving.

[John Whitmore]

I can't get over the ending of Symphony No. 10... Those shivering ponticelli strings, that frail violin solo, like a lone voice in a cold immensity, and then - those final chords, as if something takes you under its wings.


Incredibly moving.

Agreed. Excellent music at a much higher level ever reached by that clown Bruckner I will have a listen to the new download.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Good to see your undying love for Anton...    And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.

[John Whitmore]

Good to see your undying love for Anton...    And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.

Didn't get past the first bar. The recording is a quarter tone flat which has the knock on effect of slowing the damn thing down. I'll have a mess with it tomorrow to see if I can correct the pitch.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Didn't get past the first bar. The recording is a quarter tone flat which has the knock on effect of slowing the damn thing down. I'll have a mess with it tomorrow to see if I can correct the pitch.

Really? When I play the three openings I can't hear any difference.


Later: I think you're right. I used http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/ to check (I don't have perfect pitch).

[John Whitmore]

Really? When I play the three openings I can't hear any difference.


Later: I think you're right. I used http://www.thevirtualpiano.com/ to check (I don't have perfect pitch).

You can borrow mine. No - you can have it. It's a totally useless thing to be lumbered with.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

You can borrow mine. No - you can have it. It's a totally useless thing to be lumbered with.

Poor you... But work your magic if you can. Perhaps the corrected file could replace the 'faulty'one... But that's a matter for Martyn and the HBS.

[John Whitmore]

I've corrected the pitch. It's still very wobbly so I guess it's from a low quality tape recorder. I've not listened to it yet but the first few seconds are very flat footed. Not just a tempo issue, more about the actual attack etc. Will listen to it tomorrow. This is still my favourite Brian symphony just ahead of the 4th
Here's the link
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992
It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. There are loads of them. I save the wavs and tweak them and remake the CDs so it doesn't drive me too bonkers. I really must get a life..........

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I've corrected the pitch. It's still very wobbly so I guess it's from a low quality tape recorder. I've not listened to it yet but the first few seconds are very flat footed. Not just a tempo issue, more about the actual attack etc. Will listen to it tomorrow. This is still my favourite Brian symphony just ahead of the 4th
Here's the link
http://www.mediafire.com/?u9snf2f9yh97992
It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. There are loads of them. I save the wavs and tweak them and remake the CDs so it doesn't drive me too bonkers. I really must get a life..........

I agree the opening is too slow (the score says crotchet=60). I'll give the 'new' version a listen. Thank you for your current life. 


P.S.: I suddenly wonder how this works copyright-wise. But neither you nor I are making any money out of this...

[calyptorhynchus]

John W "It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. "

If they're consistently off-pitch, surely it doesn't matter? You musn't like early music!

[John Whitmore]

John W "It's really amazing how many commercial recordings are issued slighty off pitch. "

If they're consistently off-pitch, surely it doesn't matter? You musn't like early music!

Of course it matters. They are usually off pitch because the tape is running slow which drops the pitch and lengthens the timing of the music. When my ears tell me that it's not in tune I can't listen to it. Orchestras tune up for a reason. Like many other people I do have issues with piano music because, for example, there's one key on the keyboard for F sharp and G flat when in reality they are two different notes. Pianos are tempered (nice compromise) but never sound truly in tune. Trust me, I'm a doctor (No I'm not, I made that bit up). Early music - not my cup of tea but that's a mixture of pitch, musical content and the instruments used. Small doses at a pinch but I can't get too much enjoyment out of it.

[hbswebmaster]

Wow, well-spotted, John! Like Johan, I don't have perfect pitch (what, a percussionist without perfect pitch?!) and hadn't detected the slight flatness. The opening sounds very similar to my ears actually, but it makes a clear difference in the shining chord at the close. In the melting-pot of analogue vs. digital, I suppose this is one advantage of digital in that although you can get artefacts, pitch variations, wow and flutter aren't among them. I'll replace the current version on the website with yours if you're in agreement.

[John Whitmore]

Wow, well-spotted, John! Like Johan, I don't have perfect pitch (what, a percussionist without perfect pitch?!) and hadn't detected the slight flatness. The opening sounds very similar to my ears actually, but it makes a clear difference in the shining chord at the close. In the melting-pot of analogue vs. digital, I suppose this is one advantage of digital in that although you can get artefacts, pitch variations, wow and flutter aren't among them. I'll replace the current version on the website with yours if you're in agreement.

I'm in full agreement but do I win some sort of prize? Do you have a higher quality version for me to tweak? Messing with MP3s reduces the quality further. Happy to do it again from a better source file.

[John Whitmore]

Just listened... This really is a historic recording - the first performance of Symphony No. 10, recorded in 1958, only four years after the work was completed. Stanley Pope had nothing to go on, the idiom was new, the single-movement structure with all the tempo fluctuations was something he had to 'unlock' for himself. I think he does a more than creditable job.


I read along with the score and I noticed that Pope doesn't follow some of Brian's directions, as if he and the orchestra are still getting used to the style... The first few minutes are slow, very slow, even when Brian asks for a slight accelerando or a più vivo (more lively). Loughran is more precise here, and Brabbins even more. The quiet before the storm is very beautifully done and the 'storm scene' proper also comes off very well. But where Pope scores over his rivals is the second half of the symphony. The violin solo is the best I have heard so far, and the martial music that follows it has all the grimness and triumph you could wish for. After that there is a transitional passage (to the Coda), marked espressivo by Brian, which has never been so affecting. And the 'sphinx-like' supernova chord is really mysterious, even better than in the LSSO performance (I wonder, by the way, why it is so difficult for the bass drum to play in time with the timpani - the first stroke on the third beat goes here wrong, too...) The ending is magical.


I am very glad I know this performance now. What a present!!

Maybe it's because percussionists are thick? No offence to our esteemed webmaster of course.....................

[mc ukrneal]

Maybe it's because percussionists are thick? No offence to our esteemed webmaster of course.....................

Probably depends where the instruments are located. I'e seen setups where the timpini and bass are next to each others. But I have seen other setups where there is a fair distance between them with other instruments in between. Of course, they could just be thick...

[John Whitmore]

Probably depends where the instruments are located. I'e seen setups where the timpini and bass are next to each others. But I have seen other setups where there is a fair distance between them with other instruments in between. Of course, they could just be thick...

There's a bloke on the podium waving a stick. Distance between instruments is no excuse. Three possible scenarios here: 1) The beat from the conductor isn't clear. 2) The players aren't watching 3) The percussionists are thick  My bet is still on 3).

[mc ukrneal]

There's a bloke on the podium waving a stick. Distance between instruments is no excuse. Three possible scenarios here: 1) The beat from the conductor isn't clear. 2) The players aren't watching 3) The percussionists are thick  My bet is still on 3).

Well, you are right they should be watching the conductor. On the other hand, if you hear one thing and see another, it can be difficult to pick the right course. So if the conductor is setting a tempo, but you hear something different, because the sound is taking time to get to you, you may be off. Of course, as professionals, this should not really be the case, but it happens.

[John Whitmore]

Good to see your undying love for Anton...    And yes, do listen, and see for yourself how Pope's reading compares with Loughran's and Brabbins'.

Just listened to it. If it wasn't so wretchedly slow it would be the best performance. Great technical playing, hangs together superbly BUT it sounds like a rehearsal. It clocks in at 20'30'' compared to the LSSO at 18'. That's 14% longer for a short work lasting less than 20 minutes. You would just about get away with a 14% difference on a work lasting for a couple of hours but this is ridiculous. I've enjoyed hearing it but there is a disastrous lack of drive and momentum about it. Maybe if I tweak it back to 18 mins it would sound fabulous and take pride of place. No, that's taking cheating way too far............

[John Whitmore]

Well, you are right they should be watching the conductor. On the other hand, if you hear one thing and see another, it can be difficult to pick the right course. So if the conductor is setting a tempo, but you hear something different, because the sound is taking time to get to you, you may be off. Of course, as professionals, this should not really be the case, but it happens.

What?? You watch the conductor full stop. You can only hear the players in the vicinity of where you sit. At the back of the 2nds sitting front of the horns you hear yourself and a load of very loud horns down the back of your neck. The only way you can stay together with the players 20 yards away is to watch. If you didn't pay attention to the likes of Reiner and Szell for every millisecond you would be humiliated and probably wouldn't stay in employment for too long. Metronomes set tempi. Conductors phrase and with some of them there are barely two bars in the same tempo.