Havergal Brian.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I'd call it an HB-nera.


Listened to the passage you find 'oriental', cilgwyn. Well, I think they are (rather curiously-orchestrated) pentatonic scales, which would account for your association.

[Sergeant Rock]

Nice to see Limelight Magazine listing Brian's third symphony as one of the 'Top 12 great symphonies you probably haven't heard....An interesting list. Benjamin's Symphony is there & Panufnik,William Schuman's third,Rott's,the Korngold......

Give us the complete list please    I want to see how many I haven't heard.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I'd call it an HB-nera.


Listened to the passage you find 'oriental', cilgwyn. Well, I think they are (rather curiously-orchestrated) pentatonic scales, which would account for your association.

Actually,it sounds more 'Indian'. Like the kind of music that I used to hear,when I was tuning my shortwave radio,or weaving in & out of a radio station I DID want to listen to! I wonder what made Brian think of that? Perhaps he had a shortwave radio too!
Actually,I think it just 'came into' his head. I don't think he was trying to throw in some 'world music' (as it's called now). The 3rd symphony is,literally,teeming with all kinds of amazing ideas,one after the other,and it's hardly suprising that something as wild as that would have just popped into his head & Brian thought.'that sounds good!'
One things for sure,it's a very brief & presumably coincidental resemblance. Havergal Brian's 'Vishnu' Symphony (one of Hovhaness's wilder & arguably, better symphonic efforts) it isn't!

Sgt Rock,the list is there on the Limelight Magazine site. I will give you a link that I hope will work (back to my shortwave radio,I fear! ). Of those mentioned,I haven't heard Kalinnikov's! I gather that if you like Balakirev,Borodin & RK,this one's a treat! Vanhal is another one. I think I have heard the Panufnik years ago,but I'm no expert on his music.
Rott is represented by the BIS recording. No Bax symphony (I would have included his Second!) but Benjamin's is there & I haven't heard that one either!!! It's on my 'want to hear' list!

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/307642,top-12-great-symphonies-you-probably-havent-heard.aspx

[calyptorhynchus]

I wasn't sure about the criteria for the Limelight list (only one recording, a few, but rarely heard?) [In fact in Australia we rarely hear any good music on the airwaves or in the concert hall].

Anyway, leaving aside composers such as Magnard, Dutilleux, Lutosławski, Moeran as being too well-known, hear are my ten twelve:

1. Vanhal (agreed, there are about 20-30 symphonies recorded and all are good)
2. Brian (agreed, but not 3, to give someone a good idea of Brian I suggest 8, 16 or 32)
3. Simpson (4, 8, 9 or 10)
4. Diamond (8 or 10, except there's no recording of 10)
5. Haug (3)
6. Madetoja (2)
7. Mathias (3)
8. Nørgård (7)
9. Pettersson (5, 9, 13, 15)
10. Rautavaara (7)
11. Saygun (3)
12 Truscott (his one and only, though we'll probably get more rediscoveries/reconstructions in due course)

[calyptorhynchus]

Oh, (and yes, you can tell I was short of things to do today), here is my version of Malcolm MacDonald's list of Brian symphonies and whether they are top-rate, good, or middling (you can tell I'm more of a fan of the later Brian):

Top-rate: Gothic, 6, 8, 16, 22, 24, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32
Good: 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 25
Middling: 2, 3, 4, 5*, 13, 14, 26, 28

* only because the words are so terrible

[Sergeant Rock]

Sgt Rock,the list is there on the Limelight Magazine site. I will give you a link that I hope will work (back to my shortwave radio,I fear! ). Of those mentioned,I haven't heard Kalinnikov's! I gather that if you like Balakirev,Borodin & RK,this one's a treat! Vanhal is another one. I think I have heard the Panufnik years ago,but I'm no expert on his music.
Rott is represented by the BIS recording. No Bax symphony (I would have included his Second!) but Benjamin's is there & I haven't heard that one either!!! It's on my 'want to hear' list!

http://www.limelightmagazine.com.au/Article/307642,top-12-great-symphonies-you-probably-havent-heard.aspx

Thanks for the link. I own eight of them and have ordered two I haven't heard: the Vanhal G minor Bryan g2 (I have the G minor g1) and the Benjamin. Michael Haydn 29 is unfortunately oop and the Gounod doesn't particularly interest me.

Do try to hear that Kalinnikov--although I think his First is even finer--well, melodically more memorable anyway.

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I tend to take these lists with a pinch of salt;but Brian's 3rd is there (not the usual suspect,even if you like him),the Korngold & Rott certainly deserve better,than they get,Benjamin sounds interesting & I'm going to HAVE to hear that one! The cheap Marco Polo has a good coupling,but I have a feeling buying it is going to be a case of false economy. So I'm putting the Lyrita cd at the top of my shopping list. Vanhal sounds very interesting,but I've spent my current 'quota',so he's going to have to wait a bit!
Bate's 3rd or 4th,probably should have been there & Vandermolen thinks highly of Arnell's third. I have an off air cassette of his Piano Concerto & I was quite impressed by it. This sounds like a back handed compliment,but Arnell certainly knew his Prokofiev!
I would have snuck in Bax's Second,because I think he's underrated & because it might persuade people who have been put off by the more rhapsodic,pictorial Bax,ie The Garden of Fand,or the more ruminative No 3. (I'd include Spring Fire,but it hasn't got a number! )

Nice to see Mathias in you're list calyptorhyncus. I like Mathias at his best,but I have been particularly impressed by the symphonies. The Nimbus recordings are marvellous. I remember writing to them about Daniel Jones & they didn't answer! Chandos & Hyperion always do,fair play! Still.maybe they were too busy recording!
I will have to investigate some of the other names on your list.

Not sure if I agree with you about your Brian rankings. Not saying you're wrong,just that I don't agree with you about some of them. No 3,in particular,is my all time favourite! Having said that,while I applaud the decision to include one of the 'other' Brian symphonies (not,'that' rather large one!) I do agree that it's not Brian at his most typical & that it's origins as a piano concerto,make it a bit of a problem symphony,in some ways. I love it,but I can imagine some people,who aren't familiar with Brian,sitting there thinking,'Whats are these wierd bits that sound like a concerto & why aren't they in the rest of the symphony?' I personally find it startlingly original,at least for a British composer & it's profusion of garrulous ideas,brings to mind Villa Lobos at his magpie best (choros No 11,for example),although Brian sounds nothing like him. Other people,however,who don't know Brian so well might be more perplexed. In that sense No 6 would probably have been a better choice.
I find you're exclusion of No 10 a little perplexing,however? That one usually gets a top rating from Brian admirers.
Each to his own,though!

Must hear those Kalinnikov symphonies,Sarge. The bis cd sounds very tempting. Gliere's Second almost deserves a look in on that list. Very underrated (I like his First,too!).

Nice to see Schuman's third,there!

[calyptorhynchus]

This is a little bit of a pathetic post, I've just been over at the Bruckner thread and people are talking about how they own 20-30 recordings of Bruckner's 8th, this post consists of wining about the technical quality of the only recording of two of Brian's symphonies!

Anyway, has anyone had any trouble with the Naxos Penny recording of 20 & 25. I didn't notice a problem when I played it on my CD player, when I ripped the tracks to mp3s for my iPod I noticed a click at the end of each track (and this recording has multiple tracks within the one movement, grrrr). When I ripped the .wavs off the original to put on a compilation CD for the car I found that there was a burst of electronic noise at the end of each track. I've looked at the tracks in Audacity (a sound editing program) and found they seem to have put a pause at the end of each track, regardless of whether it ends of a movement or not. I suppose I can use Audacity to remove these (and join the multiple tracks up into a single track for each movement), but what a bother.

Anyone else noticed this? I guess the better quality your CD player the more easily it can compensate for this.

[cilgwyn]

I had trouble when I burned a cd of that album. Little ticking,or clicking, noises as the cd player moved from track to track. I must admit I put it down to the fact that I am not someone with much aptitude for downloading & burning,or I just need to swat up a bit more on this sort of thing? (No wonder I still use cassettes! )
Memo:I must get round to it.............

Not wanting to blame my tools,but do the symphonies REALLY need all those tracks,anyway? A bit of a pain if you just want to program in ONE symphony! Not beyond the bounds of possibility,but a little tedious,to say the least!

Incidentally,having only two cds of Bruckner symphonies (the Seventh) I suppose there's not much point me joining that thread!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Apologies for being so shamefully absent, these past few days. I don't think I encountered any problems when I ripped the 20 & 25 CD, but I'll have a listen again in the morning (it's past 3 AM here). If my rip is flawless, I'm willing to upload it.   As for the ranking of Brian's symphonies, I concur with many of calyptorhyncus's assessments, but not all. Again, my list will follow later today.   A personal note about my absence - I am very very busy with my writing. One excellent development is the following: a short piece (only 200 words) I was invited to write, about Order and Chaos, will be published in a programme booklet of the Concertgebouw in September (one work they'll be playing is Charles Ives' Fourth Symphony). I am rather proud of this, I must admit

[Hattoff]

Track clicking is a problem with quite a few ripped CDs and particularly with naxos whi divide works up more than necessary for most listeners. Editing with Audacity is fiddly and, for some reason, doesn't always resolve the problem. I have learnt to live it, but I imagine many would find that difficult.

My faves are 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21,27, 30 and 31. The others, even after all this time I've still not learnt properly; which is necessary to make a valid judgement. How anyone can pass even the tiniest comment on a work, by any composer, they have heard only once is beyond me!

Just saying, I loathe stupid critics. Too much coffe this breakfast

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

On the train to Amsterdam... As to my favourite Brian symphonies (as distinct from his 'greatest'), mine are: 1, 3, 6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 27, 30, 31. As to the question of his 'greatest' - difficult. As long as we have so few performances, we simply can't know. The works I listed give me a 'lift', they are strong and varied. Other symphonies also have their very inspired moments, but are less satisfying as a whole.

[Sergeant Rock]

Lists, love lists    Keeping it to ten:

1, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 13, 16, 28, 32


Sarge

[hbswebmaster]

Very restrained of you, Sarge, keeping it to ten!

My list is only a little different to Johan's; I'd add 5, 11, 21 and 29, and would replace 31 with 32.

No problem with the 20/25 CD regarding end-of-track clicks - but mine's he original Marco Polo issue. There are some uncalled for clicks in the first movementof 25 though. Almost like playing an LP!

[Sergeant Rock]

Very restrained of you, Sarge, keeping it to ten!

Moderation in all things, sayeth the preacher. I finally took that to heart recently after six decades of wild immoderation 

Sarge

[cilgwyn]

I'll drink to that!

[calyptorhynchus]

Changes are afoot at Unsung Composers. It seems the site will now focus on "Romantic" composers and recordings of radio broadcasts. The archive is still there for the moment.

Will be interesting to see what they regard as "Romantic", will HB make it?

[Christo]

Will be interesting to see what they regard as "Romantic", will HB make it?

It will be hard to deny HB the status of 'Romantic', but HB fans are a different matter. I'm afraid not many of them will be able to stay active at the UC forum. 

[cilgwyn]

There certainly is a streak of the romantic in Brian. The ambition of the early symphonies & his choice of heroes. The Gothic is a product of late romanticism,in it's steely way,even if it looks further ahead than that period (as well as back!). Parts of 'The Tigers',the Seventh & the Second & third symphony particularly,are very romantic,especially the 'Brucknerian' (well,some people refer to in that way) third. Indeed,the inspiration & mood of the Second strikes me as intensely romantic,even though the music itself is very anstringent,almost dissonant at times.Although,I'm not sure I would class it AS romantic!
Having said that,like Daniel Jones,who's got a similarly romantic streak,he's probably a bit too astringent to fit in with the likes of Raff,Stanford(!),Marx,Wetz,Draeseke,Ropartz,Bainton & some other composers that appear to fit in over there.

I wonder how this will apply to composers who change their style later on? Cyril Scott starts off like an English Debussy or Scriabin,but his late output is very astringent. Even a wildly romantic composer like Schreker got very sinewy in his last years.
Brian goes even further;although,even in his most allusive later symphonies there's always something of the romantic about him,even if isn't always apparent in the music itself.
And what could be more romantic,as the choice of subject matter for an opera,than Faust?

But maybe they're referring to the actual music itself;so the Gothic will be allowed,maybe & the tenth symphony will be shown the door?!!

[calyptorhynchus]

Re: my list

I've been lsitneing to No.19 a bit recently, and I might move it up to "very good". Oh a decent recording of it (and all the unrecorded ones!)