Havergal Brian.

[Dundonnell]

I am afraid that it is a little difficult to respond in an appropriately measured and courteous fashion when one has been accused of attempting "to crucify Brian because other composers have fared worse".

I have no desire to "crucify" Brian. Quite the reverse.......as I suspect you know perfectly well.

My point was made in reply to a comment on the fact that this thread has run to 257 pages. Brian does have passionate supporters. His music merits passionate supporters. I am one.

BUT the reason I have started so many threads about other composers is to attempt in my tiny way to keep their deserving names alive too. I started the thread on Daniel Jones(14 pages ) and I quote cilgwyn:

"After my Delius sessions..........I felt like a really good symphony. I am now listening to the AMF downloads of Daniel Jones's symphonies 2 & 3. I can't believe how impressive these unrecorded,ignored (even here in Wales ) symphonies are. Marvellous! We get Rachmaninov & Glazunov symphonies from the BBCNOW,but no Daniel Jones symphonies! What a strange world! After Havergal Brian,I find him one of the most absorbing British (albeit,WELSH!) symphonists,I know. Very,very satisfying to listen to. Like Brian his music has a thorny exterior,but it has a strong lyrical vein & his orchestration is varied & colourful. At times almost romantic,the more you listen the more you find. Like Brian at his best,I think you could go on listening to this music,over & over again & always find something new."

We should record HB. We should also record a composer like Daniel Jones. That is all I am saying

[Cato]

I have no desire to "crucify" Brian. Quite the reverse.......as I suspect you know perfectly well.

  MAYBE I did not use enough     emoticons       in my original comments    to show that a humorous      intent was meant, after noticing the astonishing number of pages.

And now I have caused even more pages to be added!!!   

BUT the reason I have started so many threads about other composers is to attempt in my tiny way to keep their deserving names alive too...

We should record HB. We should also record a composer like Daniel Jones. That is all I am saying

And many thanks to Dundonnell for those efforts! 

(Although the old pocketbook quakes and shakes at the cost of liking or loving another composer's music....)   0:)

[John Whitmore]

Brian has created his own world in sound, a world full of visions, weirdness, beauty, in a powerful and colourful idiom. He isn't very sensual. He can be rather grim and grand. There is a filmic quickness to his thinking. He is as addictive as Tolkien, who polarises opinon just as much. I don't know if his time has come. I sincerely hope so. But there is still a lot of work to be done.
In the meantime I applaud Colin's advocacy for other deserving causes. But I cannot be touched by every 'unknown' composer. I have added Pettersson, Tubin, Magnard and a few others to my list of favourites, the past few years. But only a handful can touch me in my soul. Beethoven, Wagner and Brian (and Bruckner, peeping around the corner).

Run for your life Johan!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He will bore you to death.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Your warning comes too late, John. But I live to tell the tale...  There is life after Bruckner, even with Bruckner.

[Dundonnell]

Of course you "cannot be touched by every "unknown" composer", Johan   That would be extraordinarily unlikely and would suggest a catholicity of taste which had lurched into the totally undiscriminating

I don't expect to find treasure with every new composer and I don't. All I am asking is that others give a comnposer whose music I think has genuine merit AND which I think they would like a chance. You would not, as a creative artist yourself, expect someone to turn round and say "Oh, I am not going to read this novel because it cannot touch me in the way I am moved by Dostoyevsky or Joyce or Tolkien" or whoever.

But as long as, for example, the Daniel Jones 2nd and 3rd remain unrecorded it is unlikely that cilgwyn's enthusiasm or mine will much advance his cause because our advocacy cannot hope to match that which HB has enjoyed.........AND, yes, of course, fully deserved!!

[cilgwyn]

Nice to be quoted! In fact,that's actually quite eloquent for me. I'm reading it & thinking,did I REALLY write that?! Maybe there's a good novel in me,yet!

You can quote some more of me if you like. But preferably not the one about Mr Em Marshall Luck!!

I do understand what you are saying,Dundonnell. I remember one critic,years ago,I forget who,referring to Havergal Brian as the most overrated underrated,least neglected neglected composer of all time (a rough quote!). A bit catty,but even as someone who has been interested on & off,in HB,for over 30 years,I could,sort of,understand what he meant.....the rotter!!!
  I just made two cdrs of symphonies by William Wordsworth,just now;downloaded from the AMF site.Yet,there is only one cd of his music on the Amazon site. The lone Amazon reviewer refers to the music as "impressive if slightly forbidding....!"
  Yet a composers fortunes can unexpectedly change! For example,the other two cdrs I just made are of Schreker's opera 'Der Schatzgraber'. When I first heard this opera on R3,in 1985,there were no commercial recordings of his operas & none had ever been made! Now you can buy practically every one (if not all) of them on cd &,as if that isn't enough, even on dvd! To cap it all,staged performances appear to be multiplying & garnering praise!!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Of course you "cannot be touched by every "unknown" composer", Johan   That would be extraordinarily unlikely and would suggest a catholicity of taste which had lurched into the totally undiscriminating

I don't expect to find treasure with every new composer and I don't. All I am asking is that others give a comnposer whose music I think has genuine merit AND which I think they would like a chance. You would not, as a creative artist yourself, expect someone to turn round and say "Oh, I am not going to read this novel because it cannot touch me in the way I am moved by Dostoyevsky or Joyce or Tolkien" or whoever.

But as long as, for example, the Daniel Jones 2nd and 3rd remain unrecorded it is unlikely that cilgwyn's enthusiasm or mine will much advance his cause because our advocacy cannot hope to match that which HB has enjoyed.........AND, yes, of course, fully deserved!!

Fair enough, Colin. I am still open to experience new music, but my time is restricted. The greatest additions to my personal canon have been, as I said, Pettersson, Tubin, Magnard, and Enescu. I also have come to like... York Bowen's music. Even Ligeti and Conlon Nancarrow... But I am busy and finding the time to absorb something new is limited. I also have to read and write!


Perhaps the amount of passionate advocacy an artist can inspire is an indication of the presence of something special. Artists who are masterly in a more moderate and less earth-shattering way won't cause extreme reactions in their audience, that excess of energy which will turn people into zealots. That may be unjust, but it may be a reason. Being born in the wrong country, or the wrong time, can be an obstacle, too. But if the work is strong, posterity will help out. Which is cold comfort to the dead artist, of course... But who said life was fair?

[cilgwyn]

Wordsworths third has a lovely,serene,glacial,slow movement! After this one,thanks to the AMF downloads,I can hear No 4 & then No 5! But no No 6,it seems! The result,an annoying gap before the continuation of No 7 & 8!
On the other hand.if I want to & have the time,thanks to numerous cds & uploads,I can listen to all 32 Brian symphonies,consecutively & thanks to the AMF,and some very good,but rather elderly recordings,all of the Daniel Jones symphonies!

Yes,I can see what Dundonnell means!

[Dundonnell]

Arnold Cooke(1906), William Wordsworth(1908) and Daniel Jones(1912).....the three missing composers of that generation

Immediately before them-Alan Bush(1900), Edmund Rubbra(1901), Gerald Finzi(1901),  Sir William Walton(1902), Sir Lennox Berkeley(1903), Sir Michael Tippett(1905), Alan Rawsthorne(1905), William Alwyn(1905), Benjamin Frankel(1906)..........all much recorded or on the way    In the middle........Stanley Bate(1911).

[John Whitmore]

I assume that most of you have now downloaded the much improved compete Tigers from the Art-Music Forum courtesy of MVS. There are 3 zip files. Well worth hearing.

http://www.mediafire.com/?dpdi8cq4z4bj4#jeo9wp1dq0mxy

[cilgwyn]

Yes,if you like your Havergal Brian,that's the place to go. Best ever downloads of the Pope conducted third symphony (best performance ever),Mackerras Second,and,I have to agree with Johan,the Leslie Head performances of the Second are (if you like that symphony) particularly rewarding (albeit,a little rough in places). So much better than the flabby Naxos job!
Also,if you're finding a bit quiet after Bonfire night & fancy something louder than Jimi Hendrix; The 1974 Poole Das Siegeslied is very hard to beat! Just don't blame me if your pet cat packs his suitcase & moves next door!

And join the Art Music Forum & discover such hidden treasures as the symphonies of Daniel Jones. For my money,the most absorbing (neglected) British (WELSH! )cycle,after those of you know who!

End of ad!

[John Whitmore]

Yes,if you like your Havergal Brian,that's the place to go. Best ever downloads of the Pope conducted third symphony (best performance ever),Mackerras Second,and,I have to agree with Johan,the Leslie Head performances of the Second are (if you like that symphony) particularly rewarding (albeit,a little rough in places). So much better than the flabby Naxos job!
Also,if you're finding a bit quiet after Bonfire night & fancy something louder than Jimi Hendrix; The 1974 Poole Das Siegeslied is very hard to beat! Just don't blame me if your pet cat packs his suitcase & moves next door!

And join the Art Music Forum & discover such hidden treasures as the symphonies of Daniel Jones. For my money,the most absorbing (neglected) British (WELSH! )cycle,after those of you know who!

End of ad!

2 or 3 wheels?

[cilgwyn]

Shanks pony!

[Dundonnell]

The Mackerras 2nd would be a prime candidate for remastering to disc but since, I presume, the BBC retains copyright, not a realistic prospect

The argument that Johan puts forward above that great music attracts zealots is perfectly valid but zealots come in all shapes and sizes. Some are, fortunately, placed in positions of influence(like Simpson) or have a unique quality of linguistic excellence(like Malcolm MacDonald-who has the ability to make complex music come alive on the printed page through musical description of such brilliance that it inspired Johan before he had heard any of the music, in exactly the same way that Deryck Cooke's description of the Gothic inspired me all those years ago).

As I (keep on) repeating Brian deserves no less. Others may well however deserve similar good fortune. And...it may well be that posterity will deal these composers a better hand.Look at the rediscovery of Bruckner and Mahler or-at a less exalted level-the rediscovery and revival of so much late 19th century and early 20th century British music(NOT all of it deserved imho ). Fortunate indeed the composer-like Richard Arnell-who lives long enough to still be alive when the revival commences. No such good fortune for others

.....and I won't live for ever so I am not just going to sit back and let posterity make the final judgment. I shall go on singing the praises of those composers I believe unjustly neglected

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Sing on, by all means, Colin.
The Daniel Jones symphonies I have heard so far are impressive. Arnell is very strong, too. And Orr's First Symphony I wouldn't have missed for the world, wonderful piece (thanks to John Whitmore). Symphonists like Frankel and Wellesz interest me too, and I want to make more time for them. So - I do what I can to listen to composers really deserving of my time. Dyson's only symphony is a perennial favourite, too - the final bars are unforgettable. And I could go on...

[cilgwyn]

In case anyone doesnt know hmv are offering allot of the Dutton cds,including the new Brian cd of the Violin Concerto (etc),for £6.00 post free! I just ordered Boughton's opera 'The Queen of Cornwall' (a 2cd set),now,for the same price!! (£18.12 from Amazon!). A 2cd Boughton opera for six quid!!!!
The dispatch date for the cds,"usually 14 to 17 days! So,if you want them for £6,it seems you might have to wait!

I ordered the Brian cd from the Dutton site,however,as an incentive,for them to (hopefully!) record some more!!

For anyone tempted by their new Alan Bush cd! Not wanting to deny Dutton some business;but I have just downloaded all the pieces on the cd from the AMF site! (these are from broadcasts,of course,not the new Dutton!)

[Dundonnell]

My experience with HMV is that they CAN take ages to deliver and if your chomping at the bit...........

[John Whitmore]

Daniel Jones is taking over this board. Seriously - does anyone own a decent pressing of the Pye LP of the 6th symphony? Could be worth restoring.
Oops - updated later - Lyrita have already issued it. Sorry!!
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Mar04/Jones_symphonies.htm

[Dundonnell]

Pye also issed the John McCabe Symphony No.1 on LP. That WOULD be worth restoring

Regarding the Klassic Haus transfers of HB (and I apologise if this has been covered before ), the Aries LPs appear to have contained:


Symphony 1 The Gothic (1919-27)
unattributed, except 'conductor Sir Adrian Boult'
copy of the 1966 Boult performance
Aries LP 2601 (2LP)

Symphony 2 (1930-31)
attributed to 'Dresden Symphony Orchestra, conductor Ernest Weir'
copy of BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Sir Charles Mackerras, 1979
Aries LP 1631 (LP)

Symphony 3 (1931-32)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
copy of Ronald Stevenson, David Wilde (pianos), BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1974
Aries LP 1617 (LP)

Symphony 4 Das Siegeslied (1932-33)
attributed to 'Valerie MacLennan (sop), Edinburgh Youth Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, conductor Sir Allistair MacKenzie'
copy of Felicity Palmer (sop), BBC Singers, BBC Choral Society, Goldsmith's Choral Union, London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor John Poole, 1974 Alexandra Palace
Aries LP 1621 (LP)

Symphony 5 Wine of summer (1937) . Symphony 25 (1966)
attributed to 'John Hoffman (baritone), San Paulo Symphony Orchestra, conductor Francisco Teatro' copies of Brian Rayner Cook, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1976 Alexandra Palace (Symphony 5) and BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 25)
Aries LP 1629 (LP)

Symphony 8 (1949) . Symphony 14 (1959-60)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony nd London Symphony Orchestra, conductor Edward Downes, 1969 (Symphony 14)
Aries LP 1603 (LP)

Symphony 9 (1951) . Symphony 12 (1957) . Symphony 23 (1965)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 9) BBC Symphony Orchestra, conductor Norman del Mar, 1966 Proms (Symphony 12) and University of Illinois Symphony Orchestra, conductor Bernard Goodman, 1973 (Symphony 23)
Aries LP 1604 (LP)

Symphony 13 (1959) . Symphony 15 (1960)
attributed to 'Lisbon Conservatory Orchestra, conductor Peter Michaels'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope
Symphony 17 (1960-61) . Symphony 24 (1965)
attributed to 'Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner'
presumably copies of Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope (Symphony 17) and London Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman (Symphony 24)
Symphony 20 (1962) . Symphony 26 (1966)
attributed to 'Edinburgh Youth Symphony, conducted by John Freedman'
presumably copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Vernon Handley
Aries LP 3601 (3LP)

Symphony 18 (1961) . Symphony 19 (1961) . Symphony 22 (1964-65)
attributed to 'Wales Symphony Orchestra, conductor Colin Wilson'
copies of New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Bryan Fairfax, 1974 (Symphony 18) BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra, conductor John Canarina, 1976 (Symphony 19) and Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Myer Fredman, 1971 (Symphony 22)
Aries LP 1611 (LP)

Symphony 28 (1967) . Violin concerto (1935)
attributed to 'Emil Leibowitz (violin), Hamburg Philharmonic Orchestra, conductor Horst Werner' copies of Ralph Holmes, New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Stanley Pope, 1969 (concerto)
and New Philharmonia Orchestra, conductor Leopold Stokowski, 1973 (Symphony 28)
Aries LP 1607 (LP)

If this is correct then there are still several symphonies which could, in theory, be remastered, including Nos. 2, 5, 19 and 26 which would at least plug some current gaps

[Hattoff]

Am listening to then new Dutton CD. The Tinker's Weddingis excellent, who says Brian can't orchestrate? Halfway through the Violin Concerto, lovely, clear and precise, more to come.
Wanted to get in first