Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[jowcol]

Yep--and I actually listen to the soundtracks occasionally.  But then I think some of Glass's best work has been scoring for film. 

So, what's next?  Discussing "genius" with Josquin?  Pelleas & Melisande with Eric?   Beethoven with paulb?  Anything with Saul?

I personally think a thread with all of the above, mixed in with some more religion, Theresa's take on flouridation and progressivism, and liberally sprinkled with jowcol's pointless zen asides and annoying Socratic questions is the next step.

[Scarpia]

How about this:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ohl0gORYvQ&feature=related

These are the audio clips used as background in "Our Gang" or "The Little Rascals."  I believe there is no surviving score, they existed as a series of film clips that hung on a rack in the studio to be pasted together as the audio track of each episode was edited.  When the show went out of production, the clips were tossed in the trash.   The artists in the album pictured reconstructed the clips by listening to the film soundtracks.  The worst "pastiche" music, or chamber music?

[DavidRoss]

I personally think a thread with all of the above, mixed in with some more religion, Theresa's take on flouridation and progressivism, and liberally sprinkled with jowcol's pointless zen asides and annoying Socratic questions is the next step.

Let's not forget Newman on Mozart!

But, sadly, that jowcol fellow's zenish aphorisms don't cut the cheese mustard for inclusion in this august company...maybe Sean's efforts to explain the Bhagavad Gita to child prostitutes in Thailand would fit?

[Scarpia]

Let's not forget Newman on Mozart!

But, sadly, that jowcol fellow's zenish aphorisms don't cut the cheese mustard for inclusion in this august company...maybe Sean's efforts to explain the Bhagavad Gita to child prostitutes in Thailand would fit?

Along with some snapshots of underage Asian girls in hotel rooms, and Sean in his bathing suit   

[71 dB]

Too bad the Missa doesn't use a piccolo flute.

What? Really? Does Missa Solemnis use only flute? Sounds so piccolo...  Maybe it's flute played very high then? I am not an expert of instruments. Whatever it is I like it.

[karlhenning]

I am not an expert of instruments.

QFT

[karlhenning]

. . . And on top of this, the film work that they tried their hands at is nowhere near the apex or full potential of their creative musical output, it's mostly just a curious footnote.

No, you're over-selling here, James.  Aleksandr Nevsky earns its place in concert as an oratorio staple; and Lt Kizhe is really the benchmark for suite of film stuff which merits concert presentation.

And Shostakovich's music for the Kozintsev Shakespeare films, Hamlet and King Lear, are marvels of musical underpinning.

Nothing merely curious-footnote-ish about any of these efforts.

[Grazioso]

Or ever from the 'get go'. Read my recent reply to jochanaan, it applies to all of the big name composers who came from outside & dabbled in cinema that people are throwing into the thread in order to prop up the 'seriousness' of the music it produces. Forgetting where and how these men started. They were not the products of film classes. And on top of this, the film work that they tried their hands at is nowhere near the apex or full potential of their creative musical output, it's mostly just a curious footnote.

James, the problem I (and I think others) are having with your approach to this discussion is its combination of sweeping generalization, self-contradiction, and lack of evidence/dismissal of evidence that doesn't serve your ends.

I think I can safely summarize the gist of your posts in this thread as the following:

You posit a category of music called "classical music" or "art music" that is of high quality, serious in conception, and deep in intent and/or effect. Said music is predicated on a pure art-for-arts sake mentality that forsakes remuneration, collaboration, or courting audience approval.  It is music which is non-commercial, lasting in value, and worthy of study.

You feel that film music, John Williams music in general, and Williams's score for Star Wars are none of these things.

The problem is that the boundary you are trying to set up to keep the supposed barbarians outside the gate is built on flimsy foundations. How does one define deep or serious? Apparently it is whatever you say it is. What makes some music high quality and other low? Whatever you say it is. You steadfastly refuse to discuss musical particulars and rely on "it's obvious." Could you please tell us something concrete about the score's melody, rhythm, harmony, structure, and instrumentation?

Additionally, I and others have provided numerous examples of how "classical" composers have not always stood the test of time or have met with varied critical reception over time, have created music for money, have courted audience appeal, and have, yes, written for film. (If that's so terrible, why would such great artists supposedly demean themselves by tackling it?)

Additionally, you demonstrate little if any sympathy for or understanding of film (and by extension film music) as a serious art form, one that is created, by some, with earnest and diligent intent to express their creativity or worldview. It is, nevertheless, an art form studied by scholars and critics, practiced by schooled professionals, discussed and debated by enthusiasts, and preserved in archives.

You are in such are hurry to exclude certain things from the supposedly pristine world of classical music that you do those things no intellectual justice and end up with a definition of classical music that is doomed to failure.

[jochanaan]

No contradictions whatsoever, and no lack of evidence either. And other than the composers that people are tossing into the mix who 'dabbled in' cinema but certainly never came from that world. Name me one film composer who even comes close at all? Can't be done - and that's really the bottomline.

I suppose that George Gershwin couldn't have become a recognized "classical composer" either?  Before you react, please remember that his entire early training was as a professional songwriter on Tin Pan Alley...

Just because something "has never been done" by your standards, doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Philoctetes]

Maybe one day a film composer from the film world will have 'other goals' too, and get tired of the formalic routine of cinema and push ahead into deeper and greater artistic pastures... & achieve something similar (in their own voice, of course), but it's nowhere to be seen; yet ...

lol

[jowcol]

No contradictions whatsoever, and no lack of evidence either. And other than the composers that people are tossing into the mix who 'dabbled in' cinema but certainly never came from that world. Name me one film composer who even comes close at all? Can't be done - and that's really the bottomline.

The initial point was valid, but now the causality in this direction  is a bit confused for the unenlightened such as myself. 


So you are saying that at a college like Berklee, all of the students who major in film scoring are not trained in anything else?   Are forbidden at all times to even think about writing symphonies or concerti? So one "comes from the film world" as an alternative to a more "regular" education in music?  If not, the distinction you are drawing doesn't make sense,. since it would be impossible to "come from" the film world without first being exposed to the "classics"

It would seem more realistic that someone who scores for film would have a more tradtional education, and would choose to invest both their time and level of personal dedication based on their own inclinations, not something they'd read here.

Eagerly awaiting the next permutation.

[Philoctetes]

Eleni Karaindrou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-kekZGK-d4

[jowcol]

jowcol read my last reply to jochanaan ... it foreshadows most of the Qs & concerns youre asking about. Sure, i guess 'it could be possible' for someone who (by choice) is steeped in working for cinema; deciding to break out of that mold ... find their own voice and creating standalone music on their own terms in a major way () ... but it's yet to be seen. That whole world doesn't seem to be the proper breeding ground.

I've read it (again), but not sure if it helps me tread the path to enlightenment. 

First, it seems like you are using a binary model to analyze this-- either you are "in film" or you aren't.   It strikes me as an oversimplified approach.  Where would we put the likes of William Alwyn and Malcom Arnold , who wrote MANY film scores as well as several more serious orchestral works?    (There is nothing really  commercial about some of the later symphonies both of them wrote.  Arnold's 7th and Alwyn's 3rd and 5th have some thorny elements.) 

So, instead of a simple yes-no, binary model, suppose we took a more probablistic approach, where we said that the "more" a given composer wrote for film, the less likely they would be to create "serious" works.  ( ALthough, we have to admit that getting a consensus on "serious" will never happen).  This allows the spectrum of involvement to be covered, and allows the case where something written for film can have serious or lasting value (e.g.,  Odd Man Out, Koyaanasqatsi), or that an accomplished "serious" composer can have also written for film without being totally destroyed by the Hollywood film machine.

I think this would cover some of the examples and suggested associations, but still leave room for the "exception that proves the rule". 

But is this dichotomy limited to film?  Any composer needs to decide how they are going to pay the bills unless they are independently wealthy, and has the need to identify and communicate with SOME sort of audience.   Yes, I can create my own bizarre musical language, but I may not have any lasting impact if NO ONE really hears or sees the music I've written.

Once again-- the "breeding ground" probably takes place in the educational system, not the "workplace".  A student may elect to take a film scoring course, but that happens before, not after they score a film...

[jowcol]

Was referring to those who consciously decide-to work in film & TV.

Still binary then?   Does this put Alwyn and Arnold on the side of evil?

[DavidRoss]

[karlhenning]

Still binary then?   Does this put Alwyn and Arnold on the side of evil?

Darth Delious needed some . . . persuasion, too.

[jowcol]

Zzzz we've been through this drill so many times.

Yes, without an answer....l.

[jowcol]

No, the answer was given pages ago .. but some folks here keep desperately trying to draw parallels over and over where it doesn't even apply.

Perhaps you can show some of those desperate folks the quote, to ease their desperate sense of desperation.

[jochanaan]

No, the answer was given pages ago .. but some folks here keep desperately trying to draw parallels over and over where it doesn't even apply.

Not parallels--counter-examples that disprove your too-broad statements about film composers.  Big difference.

[Luke]

Again .. Glass like the others mentioned earlier who 'dabbled' in film isn't known for just that stuff is he? It's not the central path, never was.

I'm not at all sure about that, James (but I don't want to enter the argument in general). Glass's film scores are, undeniably, like it or not, a major part of his output, volume-wise, and are a large part of the reason why he is widely known. But actually, forget his more recent scores, and just focus on those scores for Reggio's 'Qatsi' trilogy which have been mentioned so much. The first, Koyaanisqatsi, is generally held to be one of Glass's finest and most representative compositions - if the Glass style is for you, and I appreciate that it isn't for many, then it doesn't come purer, better or more perfectly realised than that score. Akhenaten is maybe the only thing that comes close - the pure, unadulterated and, yes, in this case inspired Glass style, writ large. The Koyaanisqatsi score isn't the mere 'dabbling' you claim. It is, I think, to quite significant extent, a very important piece in his oeuvre as a whole.

And as for

He took an alternate path for find himself first .. got involved with and dabbled in some film much later. He was one of Nadia Boulanger's composition pupils, he certainly didn't come from film school ...

the irony is that actually, it wasn't Nadia Boulanger who helped him find his 'alternative path' at all - it was working on film scores. They weren't something he came to much later, as you say, but were something he was working on very early on, and without which he may not have developed that 'alternative path'!

In parallel with his early excursions in experimental theatre, Glass worked in winter 1965 and spring 1966 as a music director and composer on a film score (Chappaqua, Conrad Rooks, 1966) with Ravi Shankar and Alla Rakha, which added another important influence on Glass's musical thinking. His distinctive style arose from his work with Shankar and Rakha and their perception of rhythm in Indian music as being entirely additive. He renounced all his compositions in a moderately modern style resembling Milhaud's, Aaron Copland's, and Samuel Barber's, and began writing pieces based on repetitive structures of Indian music