Does Star Wars soundtrack count as classical music?

[karlhenning]

The concert suite is classical music.  Light classical music, but still classical music.  Certainly it doesn't stop being classical music because of the origins of the themes or a perceived lack of seriousness.

I don't mean music written on the themes of Beatles songs; I mean orchestrated Beatles songs. So (to clarify my original question) "Paperback Writer" as recorded by the Fab Four is not classical music (right?), but if we score it for a chamber orchestra and play it on a Boston Pops concert, it's light classical music?

A counter-example:  "Sofa" by Frank Zappa, a gospel waltz as recorded on One Size Fits All.  There is a (Dutch, I think) baroque ensemble which has arranged "Sofa" . . . is this now (light) classical music?

[karlhenning]

Is the orchestral music which George Martin wrote for Yellow Submarine classical music?  Including essentially an orchestral scoring of "Yellow Submarine" . . . .

[jowcol]

Now you're trying to stretch things to ridiculous proportions ... it's not the same at all obviously, not even close. It's more the other way around. Everything evolves around the music! And a dance presentation can be suited to any music, I'd seen it done time & time again. There is no dance, without the music afterall. And name me one film score (or film composer) that even approaches a composer like Stravinsky; or the freshness, boldness & originality of those 3 pieces of music (that people can prance around in leotards to, or not). Can't be done.

Guilty as charged.  I mentioned these for a reason, and, no James, I can't name anybody who primarily writes film scores as someone who could stack up next to Stravinsky's first 3 ballets.  For that matter, I can't think very few "serious art music" composers that can rise to that level. (Although I love Alwyn....)   I just wanted to point out some potential weaknesses in the "serious artist must have total freedom and detachment from any sort of commercial concerns" chestnut. 

And what real deep musician who takes their music seriously would want their 'music' premiered in such a way? Often buried & competing in the audio mix of constant dialog and sound effects associated with film. Can you imagine ..

Hmmm.  Stravinsky, who we have just said great things about, really wanted to write film scores for MGM, but could not meet their time lines.  Since Stravinsky fits this profile , does this mean he was not a "real deep musician?"  Can you imagine....

Seriously, even if they aren't trying to aim for the most common denominator, most musicians still want to communicate with some sort of  audience and pay the bills. 

These are very good considerations/counter-arguments.

Your mention of the famous first three Stravinsky ballets is most felicitous!  Take the case of Petrushka.  That was a ballet which, actually, was entirely Stravinsky's idea;  he and Dyagilev had reached an agreement for the ballet which would later become Le sacre, but Stravinsky "refreshed" himself compositionally by first sketching an orchestra piece with a concertante piano part.  When he played that for Dyagilev, the impresario liked it so well, that communal brainstorming resulted in a broad scheme for Petrushka, and Dyagilev left it to Benois (IIRC) and the composer himself to work out the scenario.

Quite apart from the stage action which it was meant to support, though, Le sacre has enjoyed a vigorous life in the concert hall (entire, no suite drawn therefrom).  That of itself is a striking contrast (though we might discuss the meaning of the contrast) with Star Wars, which was a matter of John Williams coming up with several bits for various characters/stage props.

Karl hit a good point, and that was collaboration.  (In both Nevsky and Koyaaniqatsi, for example, the composition and film editing were interwoven to the point where it was truly a creative process. )  I think it is also a sign of skill to work around another artist or medium and still produce something valuable.

I  agree that  another useful criteria is the performance  life of the score outside of the original intention.


A final point-- which may also feed into the "light classical" discussion is the need to grow and sustain audiences for orchestral music.    To keep this form vital, I feel that some crossover material is important.  The director of our county's school orchestras makes a point of performing lots of film scores at local malls--stuff like Pirates of the Caribbean (which I think is a fun listen, but not in the same phylum as the first three Stravinsky ballets).  Although I've seen him conduct premieres of "serious" works with the same orchestra, he has a valid point that to bring more people in, and film music is the one type of orchestral music that the "vast unwashed" can readily accept.  It's like being a pusher, and starting them out on the light stuff before you hook them on the hard stuff.

[karlhenning]

The first Ewok's Dance is free, little boy!

[(poco) Sforzando]

Aren't operas composed to "fit" librettos?

No. They are composed to illuminate dramatic actions and characterizations by means of music.

[mc ukrneal]

A few more thoughts, too:
Because he is not a composer. 

Now he's not a composer? So what is he? This discussion has entered the surreal I think. Under any generally accepted definition of 'composer', John Williams certainly would be considered a composer. Your hatred and disdain of him don't change that.

[karlhenning]

Now he's not a composer? So what is he? This discussion has entered the surreal I think. Under any generally accepted definition of 'composer', John Williams certainly would be considered a composer. Your hatred and disdain of him don't change that.

Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.

[jowcol]

Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.

If he's not an arranger, but is writing out  some "original" material for musicians to play, I'd call him a composer.    Even if everything he creates  is derivative  dreck.   

I guess I don't have due reverence for the term, but hopefully have due reverence for many individual composers, living or dead.

[karlhenning]

If he's not an arranger, but is writing out  some "original" material for musicians to play, I'd call him a composer.    Even if everything he creates  is derivative  dreck.

I guess I don't have due reverence for the term, but hopefully have due reverence for many individual composers, living or dead.

Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

[karlhenning]

You know something quite incidentally amusing . . . the poll registers 28 No and 27 Yes, but informs us that 50 members have voted.

My guess is that five of the voters have since deactivated their accounts.

[DavidRoss]

Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

Exactly.  I even have friends who have purchased some of his stuff and are proud of their possessions.  And I would not remotely consider discussing this topic with them.  The duty of tolerance falls on those whose compass of understanding is greater.

[MN Dave]

The duty of tolerance falls on those whose compass of understanding is greater.

I like it.

[jowcol]

Sure. Myself, I don't consider Thomas Kinkade an artist either; but an enthusiast for Kinkade's work (and there are many) would ask exactly the same question. He isn't an artist? What is he then?

In the visual arts, I'd fully consider Warhol to be an artist-- but that's not to say I would have paid much for any of his work.

Let's get to the life or death matters..

Okay, but do you hold Richard Clayderman to be a human being or a harbinger of the apocalypse?



If if the latter, are John Tesh and Yanni also part of the  four horsemen?

.

[DavidRoss]

Someday I must hear Clayderman.  What does he do?  Model tuxedos?

[karlhenning]

I wish I could tie a butterfly.

[Daverz]

Is the orchestral music which George Martin wrote for Yellow Submarine classical music?  Including essentially an orchestral scoring of "Yellow Submarine" . . . .

Why not?  I think it would be in the long tradition of British light classical music.   

[mc ukrneal]

Dude, no hatred in the least.  Where do you fancy that?

What is he? A musician who scores films, and with enormous success.

Every post you write seems to contain so much disdain and contempt for the man and his work - it seemed a logical conclusion.

Most people would call him a composer (he's listed as such everywhere I can find) - he certainly fits the definition. Why are you so adamant that he is not?

[MN Dave]

Unless applied to a certain period of time in music history, the term "classical" has become pretty much useless IMO.

[(poco) Sforzando]

And a dance presentation can be suited to any music, I'd seen it done time & time again.

That one I don't accept at all. The ballets of Stravinsky, for example, are all collaborations, most of course with George Balanchine - and the interdependence and specificity of relationship between music and dance is among the key components of these works' success. Agreed, you can listen to Petrouchka, Apollo, Agon without knowing their choreography (Le Sacre being, to my mind, the exception that proves the rule, because no choreography I have seen for it presents the work as strongly as in a purely concert version). But each of the other works is only enhanced by seeing it, and especially with Agon the interplay of dance and music is truly mind-boggling.

[karlhenning]

Why not?  I think it would be in the long tradition of British light classical music.   

Yes, I think you may well be right.  George Martin's work on that album surprised me, I found myself liking it so well.  Here's a conundrum:  Martin himself (not saying this of the four moptops) never wrote anything so enormously catchy and popular as the Main Title for Star Wars, but the music he furnished for Yellow Submarine IMO easily outclasses the level of Williams's work.