Disappointed by Kleiber : Brahms 4th Symphony

[Renfield]

??

What's your favourite Beethoven 5th Symphony ?

Hard question.

Favourites would be Toscanini's (1939, NBC SO), Erich Kleiber's (1953, Concertgebouw Orchestra), Klemperer's (1955, Philharmonia), Fürtwangler's (1943, BPO) and Weingartner's (1933 - LPO) recordings.

But above all, for me the 5th is Karajan's piece, whether in 1963, 1977, 1984 (BPO), or earlier with the VPO in 1947.

Szell is also not at all far behind the above in my view; particularly a recent live release from 1955 (Cleveland Orchestra).


If I were forced to choose subjectively, based on personal preference, I'd go for the "heavy" Karajan 1984. If choosing more objectively, it'd be between the 1953 Erich Kleiber, the 1963 Karajan, the 1939 Toscanini, and the 1955 Klemperer.

[ccar]

I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic.      But here goes ...
I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO.      So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team.      But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold.       The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible.       But I find myself unmoved.        It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.     

Looking back to the CMF I was surprised by this provocative thread title on Carlos Kleiber and the Brahms 4th.
I am a big admirer of the Kleibers's talent (father and son). I enjoy most of their preserved performances – either opera or symphonic – and they both have made an imprint in my musical listening over the years. But for me, in spite of their close relation, their artistic character was quite different and it is by their contrasting approach and not by the similarities that I may try to compare them.

Coming back to the Brahms 4th I do understand the "heretic" appreciation that one of the most revered recordings of the work, although very impressive by the elegance and transparency may lack the dramatic effects of some more openly expressive readings.

We can compare the "official" CK Vienna version with so many other versions by the other great conductors but (AFAIK) we don't have a preserved recording of the Brahms symphonies conducted by the father Erich. But we do have other readings of the Brahms 4th by Carlos. At least 6 of them have been commercially released over the years. And when we listen to them we get different facets of the conductor – the easier to get is the alternative official 21 Oct 1996 recording with the Bayerisches Staatsorchester (DVD – DG) but if you want to listen a more free and almost violent Carlos Kleiber you may have to look for his performance with this same orchestra at Ingorstadt (5 Apr 1996 - Memories 1027-28). If you forgive the sonic imperfections of this live recording you may perhaps rediscover the emotional Carlos Kleiber you missed.
   
Carlos 

                                 

[Sergeant Rock]

I'd forgotten about this thread. It's great reading, and everyone stayed civil...even, shockingly, me and M 

I wonder if Alkan ever found his ideal Fourth. I took Brian's advice, acquired Gielen. That is a great one, too; one of my favorites now along with Wand, Eschenbach, Lenny and Karajan 64.

Sarge

[Tyson]

I prefer Jochum/Berlin over Jochum/LSO, on the double DG, mono, only problem is the sound that might not be always balanced and elegant, but top performance.

Agreed, but it's mono, and the OP already is looking for better sound than the Furtwangler he has already.

[Mr. Darcy]

How does Rattle's 4th compare (or the 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd, for that matter...)?

[MishaK]

How does Rattle's 4th compare (or the 1st, 2nd and/or 3rd, for that matter...)?

I reviewed that in detail HERE (among other recent Rattle releases). (And I'm about to go hear Rattle/BPO do No.2 tomorrow.)

As to Kleiber's Brahms 4, whoever thinks this isn't their cup of tea needs to keep that recording on the shelf for a while and revisit it a few years later, score in hand preferably. To me the most valuable recordings are those that yield new insights into a piece with every new spin - and Kleiber's Brahms 4 is practically the prototype for such a recording. There are always new things to discover, especially regarding how certain details fit in with the whole. Yes, there are other recordings I may prefer to listen to on a given day and there might be some that I may even at times consider to have gotten the inner movements down more convincingly, but the Kleiber remains a reference for good reason: I simply haven't come across another recording which is so thoroughly well thought out and yet spontaneous in execution. Wand comes close and there are others that get individual movements down as good or better in some ways, but not in others, but Kleiber rules in the finale. Nobody in my mind has yet achieved that sense of tragic inevitability. The comparison to the aforementioned Rattle recording is instructive here: Rattle doesn't connect the individual variations of the passacaglia into one coherent whole. We're left with disconnected bits that make an unsatisfactory conclusion to what started out as a great symphony.