Disappointed by Kleiber : Brahms 4th Symphony

[alkan]

I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic.      But here goes .....

I am a fan of Kleiber's recording of Beethoven 5 and 7 with the VPO.      So, I had no hesitation in ordering Brahms 4 with the same team.      But I have to say that a first listening has left me somewhat cold.       The music is beautifully played and the precision is incredible.       But I find myself unmoved.        It seems to me that the emotional side is just not there.     Tempos are rock solid (not slow, but no variation) and there is little dramatic ebb and flow.     In some passages I almost get the impression that this is how a computer would play the music.          For example, I love the stormy end to the first movement and I really expect passion and attack here.      But Kleiber plays it so straight that I feel something is missing.

I compared with my only other recording, which is that of Szell and the Clevelanders.     I generally love George, but this time I found him to be far too slow and even farther away from my ideal than Kleiber.

Maybe I need Fritz Reiner, or maybe others have suggestions for a more fiery and passionate Brahms 4 recording.      In any case I will listen again to Carlos.    Maybe I wasn't in the right mood .......       But please post your recommendations for this wonderful work.

[Todd]

Not heretical at all; Kleiber's VPO Brahms 4 is imperfect, though I still find it compelling.  It's certainly better than his later recording of the work, though.

[Harry]

Why not try Karajan DG or EMI, and Solti on Decca.

[mn dave]

Thanks for this thread. I'm always on the lookout for a new 4th.

[Opus106]

Noooo...not when that CD is on its way to me. OTOH, I'm not really good at interpreting interpretations, so it doesn't matter all that much. But to echo what the new and non-capitalised MN Dave said, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on other recordings.

[dirkronk]

For Brahms sym. 4, I personally like Reiner/RPO in whatever incarnation it now exists (Chesky?). Van Beinum is a less frequently touted name in the work, but very good if not quite at the same adrenaline level as Reiner. Beyond these, most of my favorites are historical and thus may not qualify for consideration due to sonics.

Like Todd, I classify Carlos Kleiber compelling if not ideal in this work. I frequently find Kleiber's live recordings...often on smaller labels...more impressive and involving than the critically acclaimed items on DGG. But the only live 4th I have by him doesn't follow that rule...and mine is probably a minority opinion, anyway.

Dirk

[Brian]

I'm sure many GMG'ers will view the title of this thread as heretic.      But here goes .....

Burn the heretic! 

I am one whom you might call a lover of Kleiber's Brahms Fourth; I would not hesitate in nominating it for any of my desert island lists (or being my only desert island disc). However, I can tell you there is a recording you are going to love - Michael Gielen's with the SWR on the Hanssler record label. The coda of the first movement trumps Kleiber and everyone else for excitement and ferocity, the orchestral playing throughout is just as marvelous (and the sound is digital), and Gielen is generally more willing to allow the tempo to fluctuate (he's a bit speedier than Carlos overall). I remain, after all these years, steadfastly loyal to the Kleiber album, but Gielen's performance is the only time I've felt that loyalty waver. As MN Dave can attest, I once listened to it four times in two days. In some ways it really is better, and it's definitely a classic.

[Holden]

I also do not place Kleiber's 4th at tye top of the tree. For me, Reiner is the one, followed by Bruno Walter.

[Tyson]

Walter/NYPO, Jochum/LSO, and Dorati all put Kleiber in the shade, IMO.

[George]

Why not try Karajan DG...

HvK's 1964 DG recording is wonderful! 

[mn dave]

As MN Dave can attest, I once listened to it four times in two days. In some ways it really is better, and it's definitely a classic.

Maybe I should get that one.

[Brian]

Maybe I should get that one.

Naxos Music Library has it, if you've got that, or eMusic has 30 second clips of each movement to sample...

[mn dave]

Naxos Music Library has it, if you've got that, or eMusic has 30 second clips of each movement to sample...

Thanks, Brian.

[val]

I like Carlos Kleiber in Brahms 4th. His version is one of the most coherent I know.

But there are other exceptional versions. Bruno Walter, more emotional and dynamic, Furtwängler (BPO) very powerful, Karajan (1978) with a remarkable sense of the details and the color.

[Renfield]

"Disappointed by Kleiber's Brahms' 4th Symphony."

Yes.

"Disappointed by Kleiber's Beethoven's 5th Symphony."

Yes.

Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th, and his one live Beethoven 6th; practically nothing else!


Re Brahms' 4th, my prime recommendation is Karajan's, from 1977. My favourite from Karajan, on the other hand, is the 1964 performance George mentioned. And the one I consider best of them all is the Fürtwangler 1948 BPO recording.

But there are many splendid recordings of the 4th; Rudolf Kempe's is one that immediately comes to mind! Walter too, Weingartner if we're going that far back... Also the intellectual Harnoncourt, Gielen, very analytical, etc.


Bottom line from a Brahms symphony nutcase:

Try the glowing Karajan 1977, or the passionate but slower-burning (and rougher-sounding) 1964, and call me in the morning.


P.S.: Much to my dismay, I have never heard Karajan's Brahms' 4th from the 1980's, so I can't comment on that: but I do imagine I'll enjoy it, and I'm likely importing it from Japan (where it's been reissued), anyway, to settle the "Karajan Brahms" affair.

[Brian]

Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th, and his one live Beethoven 6th; practically nothing else!

*Brian chases Renfield with a pitchfork*

[Opus106]

Carlos Kleiber has impressed me with his studio Beethoven 7th

I have a love-hate relationship with that one. (DG, paired with the 5th.) I love the last two movements, but IMO he misses the transition point in the first movement. And similarly there are moments in the second movement that aren't played like what I usually hear (and like) in other performances.

[Renfield]

And similarly there are moments in the second movement that aren't played like what I usually hear (and like) in other performances.

I've no trouble seconding this, which probably applies to his 5th as well; but contrary to the 5th, the 7th does manage to remain convincing enough, to my ears, and (as I said) impress me.

Not to say it's my favourite, but I regard it very highly as a conductor's "statement" on Beethoven's 7th, in this case Kleiber Jr's.

*Brian chases Renfield with a pitchfork*

*evades Brian's pitchfork*

You know, I actually do think there is a Kleiber who got Beethoven's 5th just right: Erich Kleiber.

Ditto for most other things his son recorded, at least in my view.

*prepares to dodge further pitchforks*

[Que]

You know, I actually do think there is a Kleiber who got Beethoven's 5th just right: Erich Kleiber.

Ditto for most other things his son recorded, at least in my view.

Now, there is a thought.....

BTW, I think that son Carlos was at his best in opera.

Q

[Renfield]

Now, there is a thought.....

BTW, I think that son Carlos was at his best in opera.

Q

I almost added "I've yet to hear Carlos Kleiber conducting operatic repertoire, though" to my post above; but I decided against it, off-topic as I was already going with it.

I am, however, certainly tempted to hear him in opera. In fact, there is a thought for me, when I next go opera-shopping!