Late Brahms Piano Works -- that's Ops 116 - 119 mainly.

[Mandryka]

That's pretty much the opposite of how I hear Gould's Bach.  To me, he gives equal weight to each voice, so highlighting the tunes is not his thing.  It might apply to pianists such as Hewitt or Perahia.

I remember when I wrote that I was listening to Cpts 13 and 14 from AoF. I wasn't meaning that he just picks on one tune and shoves the other voices into the background, by the way. I just was really impressed by the way, with him, the melodies were always to the fore, that the music sounds very attractive melodically.

By the way, talking of GG, have you heard the "alternate version" he recorded of Brahms op 118 / 2, it's published by Sony, but wasn't on my CDs. I found it on spotify. Well worth hearing if you like Brahms.

[Mandryka]

I've listened to Backhaus's solo Brahms on Naxos a few times, but I have yet to connect with it. It's very different than modern day pianists Brahms. So different that the first time I heard it, I hated it. I think Rubinstein is more successful at the non-nostalgic Brahms approach.

I listened to Richter's op. 119 from the late 50s Moscow (from a recent Olympia CD) last night and really loved it. There was a wonderful air of mystery in the air.   

It seems to be. I find the difference between Backhaus and Lupu to be vast. The latter I found instantly likeable, while the former almost seems to go out of it's way to not attract admirers.   

What is it you don't like about the Backhaus? Is it just that it confounds your expectations, after  listening to Lupu? I found it appealing straight away, just because it's so strong, dynamic and passionate.  In some ways he reminds me of Edwin Fischer, not in Brahms, but in Bach. In WTC. Just because Fischer has the same sort of drive and energy. (Backhaus isn't as  distinctive as Fischer in the way he plays counterpoint.)


I wonder what you think about Yudina's late Brahms - that's also very different from standard modern.

By the way, do try Schliessmann's op 118, which I've been really enjoying. It's on spotify. And as you know I like Richter in op 119, especially in that bootleg I sent you from London, where he seemed  to integrate all four pieces. (But then I like Backhaus's 1936 op 119 too  )

[Mandryka]

Mandryka: "I just wonder if Lupu-esque late Brahms style is a relatively modern construction."
I know no descriptions of how Brahms played his own works - but Florence May, for instance, who studied with him (after Clara Schumann) in the  early 70s,gave us her description of his playing of Bach: "It was my happiness to hear, amongst other things, his readings of many of the forty-eight preludes and fugues, and his playing of them, and especially of the preludes, impressed me with such force and vividness that I can hear it in memory still. His interpretation of Bach was always unconventional and quite unfettered by traditional theory, and he certainly did not share the opinion, which has had many distinguished adherents, that Bach's music should be performed in a simply flowing style. In the movements of the suites he liked variety of tone and touch, as well asa certain elasticity of tempo. His playing of many of the preludes and some of the fugues was a revelation of exquisite poems, and he performed them, not only with graduated shading, but with marked contrasts of tone effect. Each note of Bach's passages and figures contributed, in the hands of Brahms, to form melody which was instinct with feeling
of some kind or other. It might be deep pathos, or lighthearted playfulness and jollity ; impulsive energy, or soft and tender grace; but sentiment (as distinct from sentimentality) was always there; monotony never. 'Quite tender and quite soft,' was his frequent admonition to me, whilst in another place he would require the utmost impetuosity. He loved Bach's suspensions. ' It is here that it must sound,' he would say, pointing to the tied note, and insisting, whilst not allowing me to force the preparation, that the latter should be so struck as to give the fullest possible effect to the dissonance." Life of Johannes Brahms pp.16-17. This splendid book can be found on the Internet Archive.
While this gives us no direct clues to how he played his own later pieces, reading this one can imagine the combination of qualities he may have brought to them. Lupu is too studied and jewelled in his pathos, perhaps, to find approval in Brahms's ears. For me, Richter is the ideal in those later pieces he recorded, but he is, perhaps, a touch too marmoreal to correspond to the Brahmsian ideal, which sounds to me as if it was Schumannesque. Somehow I think of Egorov, but he recorded no Brahms that I know of. Perhaps Etelka Freund is the best model pianists should take cognizance of.

That's a very good quote, thanks for pointing it out. I'll seek out the book.

Egorov recorded some Brahms at a concert in Amsterdam. I remember thinking it was very good.

We do, of course, have a couple of recordings of Brahms himself playing   - for what it's worth.  which is very little

[George]

What is it you don't like about the Backhaus?

He absolutely refuses to linger, to savor the music.

[George]

I wonder what you think about Yudina's late Brahms - that's also very different from standard modern.

I recall liking it more than Backhaus, but I forget why. However, I seem to recall she was a bit to "tough" in this music for me.

[Octo_Russ]

A Pianist that doesn't get quoted much is Michel Dalberto, he made a disc of the Ballades and Op117 & 118 on Erato which i find stunning, another disc that i have listened to quite extensively is Jorge Federico Osorio on the Handel Variations / Ballades, and it's one of my most favourite solo Brahms recordings, another Pianist that doesn't get quoted much is Stephen Kovacevich, i like him too.

I certainly second the Helene Grimaud / Erato disc, she takes things fairly fast, but she's thrilling too, and i must second Emmanuel Ax, some people really don't like him, i don't know why, he's better than Murray Perahia, i bought his latest disc and was a little disappointed, he sounds fairly ordinary.

A Pianist i wished would have recorded the whole Op116-119 is Clifford Curzon, i have a disc of the Piano Concerto 1, coupled with 2 Intermezzi, and they are certainly enlightening, a very under-recorded Artist, the same goes for Alfred Brendel, how i wish he would have recorded Op116-119.

[Mandryka]

He absolutely refuses to linger, to savor the music.

Correct. He doesn't wallow sentimentally.

If you want lingering and savouring, try this extraordinary Pogorelich performance of op 118/2 from Lisbon in 2008

http://youtube.com/v/AoETtRX61TM

I wonder whether people object to using music as a vehicle for personal purgation like this. And whether people hear sincerity or bathos. The performance reminds me in some ways of Hunt Lieberson's Ich Habe Genüg, in that it's her response to the music in the moment of performance which seems paramount. In both cases I find the candour really disorienting.

[Mandryka]

A Pianist that doesn't get quoted much is Michel Dalberto, he made a disc of the Ballades and Op117 & 118 on Erato which i find stunning, another disc that i have listened to quite extensively is Jorge Federico Osorio on the Handel Variations / Ballades, and it's one of my most favourite solo Brahms recordings, another Pianist that doesn't get quoted much is Stephen Kovacevich, i like him too.

I certainly second the Helene Grimaud / Erato disc, she takes things fairly fast, but she's thrilling too, and i must second Emmanuel Ax, some people really don't like him, i don't know why, he's better than Murray Perahia, i bought his latest disc and was a little disappointed, he sounds fairly ordinary.

A Pianist i wished would have recorded the whole Op116-119 is Clifford Curzon, i have a disc of the Piano Concerto 1, coupled with 2 Intermezzi, and they are certainly enlightening, a very under-recorded Artist, the same goes for Alfred Brendel, how i wish he would have recorded Op116-119.

Grimaud on Erato is a favourite of mine, much more so than her later records.

[George]

Correct. He doesn't wallow sentimentally.

If you want lingering and savouring, try this extraordinary Pogorelich performance of op 118/2 from Lisbon in 2008

I don't enjoy lingering to such an extent. I enjoy pianists who fall between the extremes of Backhaus and Pogorelich. Luckily, there are many.

[Brian]

HIP ALERT



BRAHMS: LATE PIANO WORKS
The Composer's Piano
Brahms: Opp.116-119

GWENDOLYN MOK, piano
1868 Erard Grand Piano
1871 Streicher Grand Piano

http://www.msrcd.com/catalog/cd/MS1420

[George]

I've been listening to these works quite a bit over the past few days.  I think my particular favorite is Op 117 #1.  Through the happy magic of iTunes, last night I pulled together a playlist of the six versions I have on CD (Kuerti, Ax, Grimaud, Katchen, Lupu, and Nat), and downloaded sample tracks of Kempff and Gould to make eight. 

To my surprise, I found Emanuel Ax to be the most enjoyable, followed by Lupu and Gould.  Ax never seems to get much attention, either in these parts or from critics, but I thought his performance here brought just the right emotional touch to the piece, understated without being flat, nostalgic without becoming sentimental.  Very enjoyable.

Any other Ax Brahms fans here? I got his Op. 116 and 119 last night and I am listening to it now. Definitely middle of the road interpretively, IMO.

[George]

HIP ALERT

From that angle, I an not seeing it. Perhaps in an inner sleeve photo? 

[George]

Any other Ax Brahms fans here? I got his Op. 116 and 119 last night and I am listening to it now. Definitely middle of the road interpretively, IMO.

His Op. 118 is a lot better, though. More emotional impact in the quieter moments, even if the more boisterous passages are lightweight.

[Geo Dude]

For the HIP nuts (like me) this is a great recording:

[George]

Rather than the usual intimate, scaled-down style in which these works are usually played, Rudy plays them in a more virtuosic manner. Poetic beauty, Wide dynamic range, impeccable technique, this is some fine Brahms playing.

[eumyang]

Any comments about Anna Gourari's recording?  I got it recently.

[Mandryka]

Rather than the usual intimate, scaled-down style in which these works are usually played, Rudy plays them in a more virtuosic manner. Poetic beauty, Wide dynamic range, impeccable technique, this is some fine Brahms playing.

Tonally he's quite hard, but he's not as tender as Alexis Weissenberg (who recorded 118/2). I don"t like Rudy in those late pieces much, the way you describe him is the way I hear him.

I remember liking Rudy in the op9 Schumann Variations, but when I went back to it just now I thought that Katchen was much more interesting.

[Mandryka]

Any comments about Anna Gourari's recording?  I got it recently.

I listened to her in op 118/ 2 after hearing Rudy and Weissenberg.  This is very soothing playing, I felt really that what she's about is swelling crescendos  and beauty, playing to make you swoon.

Maybe one of you two would try Burkard Schliessmann in op 118 and tell me what you think. I like what I hear more and more from him in Brahms, so much so that I'm tempted to try his Handel Variations. He's  on spotify, but not the Handel Variations unfortunately.

[George]

Tonally he's quite hard, but he's not as tender as Alexis Weissenberg (who recorded 118/2). I don"t like Rudy in those late pieces much, the way you describe him is the way I hear him.

I remember liking Rudy in the op9 Schumann Variations, but when I went back to it just now I thought that Katchen was much more interesting.

Yes, Katchen is better there for sure.

[amw]

Rec me some good recordings of 118 and 119 that have coherent emotional trajectories through the sets. (I don't think 116 and 117 can be presented as unified works in the same way.) Ideally, performances that cannot be described with words like "autumnal warmth" "melancholy" "nostalgia" "Wilhelm Kempff"

I have:
Afanassiev, Boyde, Grimaud (Denon 1992) (118 only), Rittner

I don't have, but know:
Backhaus (Naxos 1936) (118 only), Grimaud (Erato 1996), Katchen, Kempff (DG 1964), Lupu