Music written in "inappropriate" keys ...

[alkan]

Musical keys generally have an emotional association linked with them.     For example Gminor has connotations of sadness, anger, desperation, etc (Mozart 40),   Cmajor is bright and brilliant.

I was wondering if there any examples of these "rules" being broken.     Is anyone aware of a piece of happy music written in G minor,  or something really gloomy written in D major?

This should be interesting ...... 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Franz Schmidt's gloomy 4th Symphony is in C major. So is Schumann's tense, edgy 2nd Symphony.

[alkan]

Franz Schmidt's gloomy 4th Symphony is in C major. So is Schumann's tense, edgy 2nd Symphony.

Hmmm .... I've never thought of Schumann's 2nd symphony in this way ..... I shall have to listen to it again  (it's been a while).      The Schmidt .... I do not know ....

[greg]

or something really gloomy written in D major?

For gloomy stuff written in the major key, just check out Mahler.

[alkan]

For gloomy stuff written in the major key, just check out Mahler.

Not quite sure that is accurate ..... only 4 out of 9 were in a major key  (1,4,8 and 9), and of those I would only say that one is gloomy overall (9).

Of course, it would make more sense to look at the keys of the individual movements to see how the character of the music compares to the key it was written in.

[greg]

Not quite sure that is accurate ..... only 4 out of 9 were in a major key  (1,4,8 and 9), and of those I would only say that one is gloomy overall (9).

Of course, it would make more sense to look at the keys of the individual movements to see how the character of the music compares to the key it was written in.

Well, yeah, I did have the 9th in mind. Also, the slow movement of the 6th and parts of the 2nd (though "gloomy" might not be the absolute best word). You're right about the other ones...

[jochanaan]

Carl Nielsen's Symphony #5.  The second section--the "battle scene" with the famous snare-drum attack--is in the usually light, sunny key of G major!

[Opus106]

What's the key with which the last movement of Beethoven's 9th begins?

[Brian]

Brahms' Third Symphony is most definitely not "pastoral" - though the three most famous F major symphonies written before Brahms' time, Beethoven's Sixth and Eighth and Dvorak's Fifth, are very cheery things.

[Brahmsian]

What is the general nature of 'flat keys'?  Are they kind of the go between of the major and minor keys?

How would one describe each of the following?  B major, B flat major, B flat minor, B minor?

[Franco]

Since for much of the history of music there has been no standardization of pitch frequency, the emotional connotations of various keys would be different depending on the period.

This article offers a summary of the history of "A-440".

[Scarpia]

Since for much of the history of music there has been no standardization of pitch frequency, the emotional connotations of various keys would be different depending on the period.

This article offers a summary of the history of "A-440".

I don't recall seeing any claims that the significance of different keys is related to their actual pitch.  The issue is the archaic tuning systems.  At it's heart the diatonic system is flawed, there is mathematically no way to define the 12 tones of the chromatic scale so that the basic intervals are in tune in all keys.  The various keys became associated with various moods because they literally sounded different on a conventionally tuned keyboard instrument.  Now that equal temperament is the norm the associates exist even in the absence of the physical effect that created them.


It is really quite simple, start with C.  the natural G is a ratio 3:2 higher in frequency.  Now you've tuned G, use that to tune D, also supposed to be 3:2.  From D tune A, from A tune E, from E, B, then F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, then from E# tune B#, which is supposed to be the same as C.   By the time you get back to B#/C, the pitch is way off, nearly a quarter tone off.   Also, the E you tuned by climbing the circle of fifths is not at all what you need to make a nice sounding C major triad.  An instrument tuned this way sounds like a horror (or so I've read).  The "Well tempered" clavier of Bach's time was a system by which intervals were deliberately mistuned by a certain amount to effect a compromise.  There are some that claim that the set of 12 loops that Bach drew on the cover page of the WTC was a set of instructions on how to tune the harpsichord for the music to sound properly.  The number of sub-loops in each of the 12 loops was supposed to specify how many "beats" to allow in the tuning of the 12 successive intervals.

This is the figure in Bach's WTC manuscript.

[Franco]

I don't recall seeing any claims that the significance of different keys is related to their actual pitch. 

If the theory is that, e.g., Mozart felt that D-flat Major had a certain emotional meaning, his D-flat would actually sound as the same pitches as our key of C Major. 

[Scarpia]

If the theory is that, e.g., Mozart felt that D-flat Major had a certain emotional meaning, his D-flat would actually sound as the same pitches as our key of C Major.

You are missing the point entirely.  Musicians in Vienna, Paris and London felt that g-minor had a certain characteristic sound even though they probably used widely varying pitchs.  That is because they all used keyboard instruments that were tuned to make C-major sound right, and as a result g-major sounded "wrong" in a certain, characteristic way.  The absolute pitch of the key was not the relevant issue.

[The new erato]

Schubert. Is there any sadder music written in C major than the string quintet? (but Schubert abounds in stuff like that).

[Franco]

I understand what you are saying, and there have been some who thought that C# was different than Db - because of this, but equal temperament was known and used as far back as the 16th century and was dominant for most of the period that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven were alive. 

Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier was the exception, not the rule and was written, IMO, to demonstrate a different tuning system, not as the product of standard pratice.  And, it is difficult to determine with any exactness the actual tunings used in different places at different times by any composer, or the reason for any emotional associations for keys they may have felt.

[Gurn Blanston]

Ahem... equal temperament was certainly known in those times (pre-mid-19th century) but was NOT prevalent, or even sporadic in usage. Tunings were entirely different from place to place. Not just the "A = XXX" tuning, but the relationships between pitches. I'll post something on it later, unless it gets covered between now and then. However, it is very safe to say that the Classical composers did not play equal temperament keyboards.

[Franco]

Ahem... equal temperament was certainly known in those times (pre-mid-19th century) but was NOT prevalent, or even sporadic in usage. Tunings were entirely different from place to place. Not just the "A = XXX" tuning, but the relationships between pitches. I'll post something on it later, unless it gets covered between now and then. However, it is very safe to say that the Classical composers did not play equal temperament keyboards.

I don't think that it is safe to say that - unless they were playing an organ, which made the change much slower than others.  Most of what I have read seems to indicate that by the time of what we think of as  the Classical period,  equal temperament was prevalent.

Of course the precise procedure was not perfected until later, but there was something called the Sabatini Method of tuning which was developed in the 17th century and produced equal temperment.

But I have not studied this in depth and can always be educated.  I have gleaned whatever understanding I have about  this topic from a general reading of music history of this period and a particular interest in this subject.

[Scarpia]

Bach's WTC was almost certainly a contrast to even more uneven temperaments.  The Valotti system, which nowadays is often considered appropriate for Bach, originated in 1749, and the slightly refined Young system dates to 1799.   Even temperament took over in the 19th century but I don't think the claim that it was dominant in the classical era can be justified.

[Franco]

When I have more time I will dig out the books I have that may address this and more fully research this issue since it is one I am interested in, but here's what I think based solely on my general knowledge:

1. I find it questionable that Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven - the leading musical lights of their respective generations - would compose using an antiquated temperment when  equal temperment was know for at least one century, and widely used for decades. 

2. One aspect of the music of the Classical period was its transposition to far removed keys from the tonic, and composers like Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven needed a system of equal temperament in order to fully utilize this form of composition.  I do not believe they would voluntarily hamper themselves with a temperment that inhibited their use of all keys.

3. And finally, I think the issue of temperament has been used by the PI camp to further distinquish their recordings, and performers specializing in this kind of approach have exaggerated the possiblity of Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven did not use equal temperament.

But, I could be wrong.

EDIT: Since I was recently re-reading Charles Rosen's book, and was drawing on that for much of what I've posted here - I did check, and found that he writes this:

All of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven was written with the system of equal temperment in mind, even music for string quartet.

Charles Rosen. The Classical Style,  p. 27

Here's a Google book link, if it works properly, to that page.