Sturm und Drang?

[hautbois]

Which of Haydn's Symphonies are listed as the Sturm und Drang symphonies? What other notable composers has written in a similar fashion?

Can someone also give me the exact numbering of the symphonies categorised under 'Paris' and 'London' and their relevant highly rated recordings? I am particularly interested in the Sturm und Drang recordings.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, coming from a classical music amateur. 

Regards,
Howard

[Xenophanes]

Which of Haydn's Symphonies are listed as the Sturm und Drang symphonies? What other notable composers has written in a similar fashion?

Can someone also give me the exact numbering of the symphonies categorised under 'Paris' and 'London' and their relevant highly rated recordings? I am particularly interested in the Sturm und Drang recordings.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, coming from a classical music amateur. 

Regards,
Howard

Haydn's Paris Symphonies are nos. 82-87 and the London Symphonies are nos. 93-104.

I like Marriner and Kuijken for the Paris symphonies.

As for Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies, Trevor Pinnock has a box set:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sturm-Symphonies-Franz-Joseph/dp/B00004SA85

I have only heard a couple of Pinnock's recordings of the London Symphonies, which are quite good, so I imagine these are good, too.

The London Symphonies are nos. 93-104.  I have Dorati on LP and a lot of people like Colin Davis.

It strikes me that if you are going to get all those, you may as well get a complete set of the Haydn symphonies.  I am thinking of getting the set with Adam Fischer and the Austro-Hunarian Haydn Orchestra, which is said to be very good and not terribly expensive.  I haven't quite made up my mind yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Symphonies-Box-Set/dp/B00006GA50/ref=sr_1_25/102-6312748-9244906?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1176134677&sr=1-25

As for other composers and works, I don't really know.  There is an article in Wikipedia mentioning some other composers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturm_und_Drang

You might also go to a library and see what there is in Groves Dictionary of Music.

[Heather Harrison]

The chronology of Haydn's symphonies is extremely messy, especially in the ones numbered lower than the mid-70's.  In general, the number has little to do with the actual time at which the symphony was composed.  Therefore, the numbers of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies are all over the map.  The Pinnock set is on my wishlist, but I haven't bought it yet.  It is probably a good guide as to which symphonies are from the "Sturm und Drang" era.

I found a list which gives Landon's numbers for Haydn's symphonies.  They are based on Landon's research into the chronology of the symphonies and are likely more accurate than the familiar numbering system:

http://home.wxs.nl/~cmr/haydn/catalog/sympho.htm

Also, don't just limit yourself to symphonies.  Haydn's Opus 20 "Sun" string quartets are wonderful examples of "Sturm und Drang".  I have them on LP, and I really need to get a CD of them since I like them so much.

Mozart's Symphony No. 25 in G minor may also be considered to be part of the "Sturm und Drang" movement, and his famous 40th may be seen as a later incarnation (or perhaps culmination) of the style.  Mozart's minor-key piano concertos, although they were composed later than the c. 1770 timeframe of most "Sturm und Drang" compositions, also have a lot in common with the style.

Other composers of the time certainly composed symphonies in the style (I have seen references to Vanhal), but theirs will be harder to find.  Generally, if you look for CDs of symphonies by the contemporaries of Mozart and Haydn, and if you find that some of the symphonies on those CDs are in minor keys, you might have found some "Sturm und Drang" symphonies.

I will be looking for more since this is perhaps my favorite style of music in the 1750-1800 timeframe; if I find others, I will post them here.  Chandos has an interesting series of CDs entitled "Contemporaries of Mozart".  I have a feeling there are some "Sturm und Drang" compositions lurking amongst them.  Come to think of it, their CD of symphonies by Sir William Herschel (the astronomer who discovered the planet Uranus) includes a rather stormy string symphony in C minor that is far more interesting than the others on the CD.  However, it dates from about 10 years before the "Sturm und Drang" movement; perhaps it is a bit ahead of its time.

Heather

[Harvested Sorrow]

The first thing that came to my mind was The Sorrows of Young Werther....

That said, thanks for the links Xenophanes.

[val]

Carl Ph. E. Bach was perhaps the most typical composer of the "Sturm und Drang" period: his famous Symphony in B minor Wq 182/5 (splendid version of Leonhardt) is a perfect example.

[DavidW]

Thread necromancy!  I'm confused as to what symphonies of Haydn constitute Sturm und Drang.  If you do it based only on chronology, it would seem that many more symphonies than say were included in the Pinnock set would count.  What are the symphonies considered Sturm und Drang and what defining features make it so?

Also outside of the Op 20 String Quartets and those symphonies, what other works of Haydn are considered Sturm und Drang?

[snyprrr]

Thread necromancy!  I'm confused as to what symphonies of Haydn constitute Sturm und Drang.  If you do it based only on chronology, it would seem that many more symphonies than say were included in the Pinnock set would count.  What are the symphonies considered Sturm und Drang and what defining features make it so?

Also outside of the Op 20 String Quartets and those symphonies, what other works of Haydn are considered Sturm und Drang?

nos. 26, 45, 52... obviously all the minor key ones in that particular location. SQ Op.20 No.5 would be my personal choice,... especially the first mvmt.

Also, how about Vanhal?

[DavidW]

I haven't listened to that particular SQ in awhile, I should give it a go.  btw #52 is one of my favorite symphonies.  I haven't heard #26 in quite awhile.

[Josquin des Prez]

Haydn's Sturm und Drang period spans from 1767 to 1773. There's a set by Pinnock that contains them all in a neat and well performed package.

[Grazioso]

Also, how about Vanhal?

He was the first composer that sprung to mind when I saw the OP asking for similar works by others.

[Sergeant Rock]

What are the symphonies considered Sturm und Drang and what defining features make it so?

I have two boxes entitled Sturm und Drang, Pinnock and Brüggen. They contain the same symphonies. I assume this is the official list. Gurn will undoubtedly shed more light on the matter.


HAYDN   SYMPHONY #26 D MINOR "LAMENTATIONE"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #35 B FLAT
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #38 C MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #39 G MINOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #41 C MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #42 D MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #43 E FLAT "MERCURY"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #44 E MINOR "TRAUER"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #45 F SHARP MINOR "FAREWELL"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #46 B MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #47 G MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #48 C MAJOR "MARIA THERESE"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #49 F MINOR "LA PASSIONE"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #50 C MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #51 B FLAT
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #52 C MINOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #58 F MAJOR
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #59 A MAJOR "FIRE"
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #65 A MAJOR


Sarge

[DavidW]

Thanks Sarge for the list... and thanks JdP for the specific date range, I can now seek out Haydn works in other genres that should be Sturm und Drang.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks Sarge for the list... and thanks JdP for the specific date range, I can now seek out Haydn works in other genres that should be Sturm und Drang.

Try the d minor string quartet from Op 9...

[DavidW]

Oh wait the Op 9 were written in 1770 weren't they?

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh wait the Op 9 were written in 1770 weren't they?

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[Chaszz]

Just as background: Sturm und Drang was a brief proto-Romantic movement that included literature, theatre, ballet and opera as well as instrumental music. The influences among the arts were many and it is difficult to pinpoint who was the most influential practitioner. However, Gluck, Rousseau, Goethe and Schiller were there before Haydn was. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Just as background: Sturm und Drang was a brief proto-Romantic movement that included literature, theatre, ballet and opera as well as instrumental music. The influences among the arts were many and it is difficult to pinpoint who was the most influential practitioner. However, Gluck, Rousseau, Goethe and Schiller were there before Haydn was.

Music was done with it before literature took it up. Goethe didn't write The Sorrows of Young Werther until 1774. This is often acknowledged to be at the beginning of the movement on a literary front. Haydn (a latecomer as you say) was done with that period in his compositional style for a year or two before that.

Very few music scholars attribute Haydn's "Stormy Phase" to any literary influence. Most will say that this was a trial compositional phase. Some of his keyboard sonatas and a few of his string quartets from that era are equally stormy and stressy. Haydn was exposed to a moderate amount of music theater during his stays in Vienna in that time, and possibly the general trend towards jagged rhythms and minor keys caught his imagination. There are a few Vanhal symphonies, and of course Mozart's Little g minor (1773) that are also good examples of S & D. And quite a bit of CPE Bach, and the keyboard works of Müthel that we have been discussing lately, and of Wolf who we will be discussing soon. And numerous others, no doubt. In any case, I seriously doubt that the music and the literature are dependent on each other. More likely the music was passing through a phase of co-influence while the literature was totally reacting to Enlightenment values and developments.



That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

[Philoctetes]

Music was done with it before literature took it up. Goethe didn't write The Sorrows of Young Werther until 1774. This is often acknowledged to be at the beginning of the movement on a literary front. Haydn (a latecomer as you say) was done with that period in his compositional style for a year or two before that.

Very few music scholars attribute Haydn's "Stormy Phase" to any literary influence. Most will say that this was a trial compositional phase. Some of his keyboard sonatas and a few of his string quartets from that era are equally stormy and stressy. Haydn was exposed to a moderate amount of music theater during his stays in Vienna in that time, and possibly the general trend towards jagged rhythms and minor keys caught his imagination. There are a few Vanhal symphonies, and of course Mozart's Little g minor (1773) that are also good examples of S & D. And quite a bit of CPE Bach, and the keyboard works of Müthel that we have been discussing lately, and of Wolf who we will be discussing soon. And numerous others, no doubt. In any case, I seriously doubt that the music and the literature are dependent on each other. More likely the music was passing through a phase of co-influence while the literature was totally reacting to Enlightenment values and developments.



That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

I call it his rad phase.

[Florestan]

Gluck, Rousseau, Goethe and Schiller were there before Haydn was.

Really?

Let's see:

Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies and SQs date from 1768-1772;

Schiller's Sturm und Drang dramas date from 1781-1785; Goethe's, from 1771-1776.

As for Rousseau and Gluck, they have never been associated with Sturm und Drang.

[Gurn Blanston]

Really?

Let's see:

Haydn's Sturm und Drang symphonies and SQs date from 1768-1772;

Schiller's Sturm und Drang dramas date from 1781-1785; Goethe's, from 1771-1776.

As for Rousseau and Gluck, they have never been associated with Sturm und Drang.

Try Herder...