Nørgård's Niche

[Madiel]

In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

Personally I find I've responded to Symphony No.7 far more than its neighbours.

Depending on how you define "late"... Symphony No.5 absolutely amazes me. The opening is just... astonishing. But it's also exhausting and disorienting music that I haven't really got a full grip on.

[Mirror Image]

In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

[JBS]

In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

But suppose tinkle tinkle whomp bam, tinkle is his musical voice?

Hey Jeffrey, this might be of some use to you:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2012/jul/30/per-norgard-contemporary-music-guide

Thanks.  Bookmarked it for the video clips.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

In the late symphonies it's hard to hear Norgard's voice through all of the orchestral effects. Too much "tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." I'm looking forward to hearing his quartets.

"Tinkle-tinkle whomp-bam, tinkle." That sums it up. 

[vandermolen]

It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.

Thanks - I actually have it coupled with Symphony 1 (my favourite so far) on Chandos so I will give it a spin.

[SymphonicAddict]

I gave to Terrains Vagues a try. It may not be a walk in the park as Jeffrey said, but it is a quite psychedelic oniric journey!  I really enjoyed this, it's partly chaotic and mesmerizing, and somehow it made sense to me. Inevitably Penderecki's early works and some stuff by Lutoslawski were brought to my mind, so this work was nothing tortuous at all. Thanks Jeffrey for mentioning it.

To be honest, I feel this kind of music is more interesting than some works by some atonal/dodecaphonic/serialist composers.

[relm1]

It's still difficult for me to fathom that this symphony (written in the early 70s) received it's U.K. premiere just last year. This symphony is brilliant and I don't like to use this word very much, because saying it so many times starts to lose the magnitude of its' original intent. The second movement, in particular, is mesmerizing and hypnotic. I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment by doing what he wanted to. I'm going to be revisiting a lot of his music in the next few weeks, or, at least, make some attempt to as there's so much on my musical plate at the moment.

You don't know what you're talking about.  Middle finger to the musical establishment?  Nothing I have heard from him agrees with you.  His early output is traditional and his mid/later output is experimental in a way that respects tradition and absolutely does not give the finger.  It's indebted to it while being distinctive.  Have you even heard his music?

[vandermolen]

I gave to Terrains Vagues a try. It may not be a walk in the park as Jeffrey said, but it is a quite psychedelic oniric journey!  I really enjoyed this, it's partly chaotic and mesmerizing, and somehow it made sense to me. Inevitably Penderecki's early works and some stuff by Lutoslawski were brought to my mind, so this work was nothing tortuous at all. Thanks Jeffrey for mentioning it.

To be honest, I feel this kind of music is more interesting than some works by some atonal/dodecaphonic/serialist composers.

I definitely agree with your last sentence Cesar not that I know too much about atonal/dodecaphonic and serialist composers or the difference between those terms to be honest. And yet there is something about Norgard which seems worthwhile. Clearly I need to explore symphonies 2 and 3. No.1 the 'Austera' seems a bit 'stand alone' to me and I find it both gripping and emotionally moving.

[relm1]

Have I even heard his music? ROFL!!!!  Nah, I haven't heard any of it, which is why I'm able to respond to other members and talk about what I (not what you) hear. Anyway, yeah, I really don't have any inclination or clue as to what I'm talking about. I'm just a fool with an opinion, which is pretty much what you are as well.

Maybe you're right and I need to relisten to it.  I always found it well structured and individual.

[Mirror Image]

Maybe you're right and I need to relisten to it.  I always found it well structured and individual.

I deleted my initial response to you (as I thought the tone of the reply was way too sarcastic and negative), but I don't think I'm right nor do I believe I'm wrong. I'm just telling you what I perceive in the music. Also, I never said anything about it not being structured nor bearing any kind of individual stamp. He clearly is his own man and he forged his own path, which I didn't mean he literally 'gave the finger' to the musical establishment, but I do believe, while he respects it (probably even more so as he aged), he did his own thing and this thing, IMHO, exists outside of said establishment whether one would admit it or not. I think also that geography has a lot to do with him --- he's kind of isolated from everything that's happening around him (not that he doesn't know about the music scene and the changes that were happening of course). This gives his music an aura of independence that is totally singular.

[relm1]

I deleted my initial response to you (as I thought the tone of the reply was way too sarcastic and negative), but I don't think I'm right nor do I believe I'm wrong. I'm just telling you what I perceive in the music. Also, I never said anything about it not being structured nor bearing any kind of individual stamp. He clearly is his own man and he forged his own path, which I didn't mean he literally 'gave the finger' to the musical establishment, but I do believe, while he respects it (probably even more so as he aged), he did his own thing and this thing, IMHO, exists outside of said establishment whether one would admit it or not. I think also that geography has a lot to do with him --- he's kind of isolated from everything that's happening around him (not that he doesn't know about the music scene and the changes that were happening of course). This gives his music an aura of independence that is totally singular.

So having an individual voice means giving the established the middle finger?    He is very highly regarded in Denmark and very generous with students giving many master classes and mentoring.  Perhaps some in this forum even know him personally but I've never heard anything about him that comes across as insincere, non-supportive of other voices, etc.  He's a class act with a very positive impact on subsequent composers.  Probably the great Danish composer of his time that many around him revere.  But yes, all of this doesn't mean you have to love his music - just don't be too disappointed if the reaction to a dismissive post in a forum about him gets some backlash. 

[Mirror Image]

So having an individual voice means giving the established the middle finger?    He is very highly regarded in Denmark and very generous with students giving many master classes and mentoring.  Perhaps some in this forum even know him personally but I've never heard anything about him that comes across as insincere, non-supportive of other voices, etc.  He's a class act with a very positive impact on subsequent composers.  Probably the great Danish composer of his time that many around him revere.  But yes, all of this doesn't mean you have to love his music - just don't be too disappointed if the reaction to a dismissive post in a forum about him gets some backlash.

Okay, here's where we're having a problem. Please read this carefully: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. In fact, what I'm saying about him is positive. I like composers who have an individuality. Understand this or don't understand this, because, at this juncture, I don't really think you want to bother reading too much into what I'm saying and only want to respond with whatever you feel like responding to.

[vandermolen]

It's worth trying Symphony 2 as it very much leads to No.3.  The third takes the infinity series principles of no.2 and puts them on steroids.

I did listen to the 'Austera' and Symphony 2 today. Symphony 2 held my attention but whilst I could admire the music and the interesting sounds it didn't connect with me emotionally in the way that Sinfonia Austera does. By the end of the 'Austera' I'm on the edge of my seat. In that sense I relate to it in the way that I do with the first symphonies by Blomdahl, Klaus Egge or Robert Simpson which are, in some ways, more conservative than their later works (I'm aware that this is a very over-generalised assertion). Also I'm less adventurous with my musical explorations than many here.

[Madiel]

Please read this carefully: I NEVER SAID ANYTHING NEGATIVE ABOUT HIM. In fact, what I'm saying about him is positive.

This. The response you're getting is a bit mystifying.

[relm1]

This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.

[JBS]

This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.

I took the word as suggesting punk rock, and therefore not disrespectful.

[Mirror Image]

This. The response you're getting is a bit mystifying.

It sure is and I'm not really calling Norgard a 'punk' in a derogatory way. If relm1 wants to take it that way, then he can. I really think it's bizarre that someone would question someone else about what they're hearing and basically how they have no clue about what they're saying. Umm...I wasn't on any hallucinogenics when I wrote that about Norgard or was I? Tune in at 5 to find out...but now, here's Bob with the weather.

[Mirror Image]

I took the word as suggesting punk rock, and therefore not disrespectful.

Precisely!

[Madiel]

This pissed me off as being excessively dismissive and negative: "I tend to think of Nørgård in this way: he was a classical punk that gave the middle finger to the musical establishment"  Punk is defined as a worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).

    a criminal or hoodlum.
    derogatory•US
    (in prison slang) a passive male homosexual.
    an inexperienced young person; a novice.

It's very derogatory.  I took offense.  This is a composer I respect.  Mirror Image was out of line.

Well, you are the only person here who understands the word "punk" in that way, and I suggest you find a better dictionary.

It was perfectly clear from context that MI was not intending a negative or derogatory meaning.

[Symphonic Addict]

I've come to think that Norgard is like Holmboe, but distilled. Not the worst for this, of course, it's just it makes sense to me.