Tone Poems

[Christo]

Three old friends....(somewhere between Debussy, Respighi and Hollywood/Steiner/Tiomkin....).

https://www.youtube.com/v/b29hVwh2zIU https://youtube.com/v/013HGwYumu0 https://www.youtube.com/v/Ie9yGilmVNk

And from the Belgian archives: Robert Herberigs "Cyrano de Bergerac"!!
http://www.robertherberigs.be 
https://www.youtube.com/v/jaNzoida8iI

P.

As so often, dear Peter, your contribution is the most original and well-informed. Many thanks, will listen to these four tone poems I don't know yet. 

[pjme]

Many thanks!  Just three orchestral works I happen to know & like.

as a teenager I was already curiuous about all those "forgotten/minor/second rank/exotic"... composers that quite often, it appeared, were able to write -at least- interesting and/or well crafted music.

In his article on Florence Price, Alex Ross writes:

"In progressive musicological circles these days, you hear much talk about the canon and about the bad assumptions that underpin it. Classical music, perhaps more than any other field, suffers from what the acidulous critic-composer Virgil Thomson liked to call the "masterpiece cult." He complained about the idea of an "unbridgeable chasm between 'great work' and the rest of production . . . a distinction as radical as that recognized in theology between the elect and the damned." The adulation of the master, the genius, the divinely gifted creator all too easily lapses into a cult of the white-male hero, to whom such traits are almost unthinkingly attached.
I feel some ambivalence about the anti-masterpiece line. Having grown up with the notion of musical genius, I am reluctant to let it go entirely. What I value most as a listener is the sense of a singular creative personality coalescing from anonymous sounds. I wonder whether the profile of genius could simply evolve to include a broader range of personalities and faces. But there's no doubt that the jargon of greatness has become musty, and more than a little toxic.
I recently had a social-media exchange with the Harvard-based scholar Anne Shreffler, who wrote of instilling different values in her classes. She said, "Instead of telling students it's Great, you can say it's worth their while: historically fascinating, well crafted, genre bending, or just listen-to-this-amazing-moment-at-the-end. Rather than a religious icon." If we are going to treat music as a full-fledged art form—and, surprisingly often, we don't—we need to be open to the bewildering richness of everything that has been written during the past thousand years. To reduce music history to a pageant of masters is, at bottom, lazy. We stick with the known in order to avoid the hard work of exploring the unknown."

Let it be clear, I have no intention at all to start a discussion on greatness and genius. But over ca. 45 years I "worked hard" to explore some sides of "the unknown". The neglect of Belgian composers (both Walloon and Flemish ones) was, I suppose, my main inspiration source. I could do more, of course...who nows, in the future.
And, entre temps, I happily work my ways through the mysterious realms of Frau Musica - from polyphony to Schütz, Bach and Mozart. and Haydn, Bruckner and Strauss, Ligeti and Matthijs Vermeulen, and Peter Schat, Jolivet, Roy Harris ... Schubert, Mahler... life is really to short.

P.

Ps: Herberigs is interesting - not much on cd.
A heady mix of Richard Strauss , Debussy and "sturdy Flemish expressionism" in later works. He was a writer, a painter and cultived apricots in the south of France! Lots of music in the radio archives - alas in old and often not too well prepared performances.

http://www.robertherberigs.be/

[Baron Scarpia]

The shortness of life organizes everything.

I have tried to free myself from getting too wrapped up in 'masterpieces' and 'genius.' In essence, when I find some time to listen, I have a choice. Do I get out something I am already familiar with (Brahms' 4th, Mozart PC 23, Die Kunst der Fuge, Beethoven Op 127) or do I get out something new or unfamiliar to me (a piece I've never heard, or vaguely remember listening to years ago). What is more likely to produce a rewarding experience?

Lately it's 50/50 what I choose. The last two days I've been coming back to some Karajan/Berlin recordings of Strauss Metamorphosen and Beethoven Op 133 from the 60's. Sometimes I feel like luxuriating in the familiar. Before that it was some Roussel ballet music I'm not sure I ever listened to before.

And, to the subject at hand, hard to say. It seems to me that everything is a tone poem, and things named 'tone poem' are just absolute music where there is a suggestion as to what association you might make with it.

[SymphonicAddict]

Must listen to Bantock's 'Thalaba the Destroyer' after two recommendations here. Lyatoshinsky's 'Grazhyna' is a very fine work.

Thalaba is quite good, despite its hollywoodian title. The box of Bantock orchestral works is a fount of delights.

It's glorious. Think of brooding. heroic B minor works such as Tchaikovsky's Manfred (particularly the first movement) and Gliere's Il'ya Muromets symphonies. And Vernon Handley's recording is stunning. Absolutely cataclysmic percussion!

Completely agreed on the 3 statements.

[Mirror Image]

Koechlin, Vers la Voûte étoilée Op.129 (1923–33)

Ah...yup! Great work.

[Mirror Image]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Griffes' The Pleasure Dome of Kubla Khan certainly applies here:

https://www.youtube.com/v/UBFpEpJc7PU

[André]

Another one I like a lot is David Diamond's The Enormous Room.

[pjme]

Yes! Will listen today .

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I tend to find it troublesome to work out which [orchestral] pieces I enjoy are 'tone poems' or 'symphonic poems' and which ones are not. Where does something like Lontano fit? Or Gruppen? Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima? What about Biber's Battalia—composed well before the historical notion of symphonische dichtung as a progressive development of symphonic form? All these pieces, and of course pieces like Eine Alpensinfonie and Tapiola, are wonderful pieces to listen to. They explore matters of orchestration and sound marvellously. None of the compositions necessarily used classical forms as the primary means to inform the creative process like some symphonies do. Some of the time, a non-musical source influenced the formal and aural creative processes. Most of the time the composers of these works would have had issues regarding sound itself as the primary focus of the works' creation.

I think I know what a tone poem/symphonic poem is, but there is something just a little bit arbitrary about the non-musical element which I find limiting when I want to include some of my other favourite single-movement orchestral works.

[North Star]

I tend to find it troublesome to work out which [orchestral] pieces I enjoy are 'tone poems' or 'symphonic poems' and which ones are not. Where does something like Lontano fit? Or Gruppen? Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima? What about Biber's Battalia—composed well before the historical notion of symphonische dichtung as a progressive development of symphonic form? All these pieces, and of course pieces like Eine Alpensinfonie and Tapiola, are wonderful pieces to listen to. They explore matters of orchestration and sound marvellously. None of the compositions necessarily used classical forms as the primary means to inform the creative process like some symphonies do. Some of the time, a non-musical source influenced the formal and aural creative processes. Most of the time the composers of these works would have had issues regarding sound itself as the primary focus of the works' creation.

I think I know what a tone poem/symphonic poem is, but there is something just a little bit arbitrary about the non-musical element which I find limiting when I want to include some of my other favourite single-movement orchestral works.

Easy solution: include them. I was thinking of mentioning Les Espaces acoustiques, myself.

[vandermolen]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Griffes' The Pleasure Dome of Kubla Khan certainly applies here:

https://www.youtube.com/v/UBFpEpJc7PU

I've just bought a CD with Howard Hanson conducting the work which I'm looking forward to hearing.

[vandermolen]

As so often, dear Peter, your contribution is the most original and well-informed. Many thanks, will listen to these four tone poems I don't know yet. 

Nice to hear the Loeffler again. My favourite work on the Koch CD is the one not mentioned on the front of the CD - 'The Masks' by Ronald Lo Presti (thanks to jowcol for alerting me to this fine and under appreciated composer)

Here are some favourite tone poems, off the top of my head:

Lyatoshinsky: Grazhnya
Bax: Tintagel, Nympholept, November Woods
Mcewan: Where the Wild Thyme Blows
Lilburn: A Song of the Islands
Rachmaninov: The Isle of the Dead
Reger: The Isle of the Dead and The Old Violinist (from the Bocklin Suite)
Holst: Egdon Heath
Tchaikovsky: Francesca da Rimini
Sibelius: Tapiola, The Bard, The Oceanides
Alwyn: The Magic Island
Hanson: Pan and the Priest
Koechlin: Vers la Voute etoilee
Miaskovsky: Silence
Meulemans 'Pliny's Fountain'
Moeran: In the Mountain Country
Ciurlionis: The Sea
Glazunov: Stenka Razin
Farrar: English Pastoral Impressions, Heroic Elegy.
Ireland: Mai-Dun, The Forgotten Rite
Novak: In the Tatra Mountains

[Maestro267]

For one thing, tone poems and symphonic poems are exactly the same thing. Just Liszt called them symphonic and Strauss called them tone. End of.

[Mirror Image]

I've just bought a CD with Howard Hanson conducting the work which I'm looking forward to hearing.

That should be good, Jeffrey. I own it one of those Mercury Living Presence boxes.

[pjme]

https://www.youtube.com/v/wkGPPrDgwyg

Great! And this a French "Concert de Noël enregistré le 16 décembre 2016 "!!.  good work Mikko!

P.

[bwv 1080]

I dreamt of a strange and alien planet traversed by a pitilessly hot sun. It was basically a desert landscape. The remarkable thing was, I seemed to be seeing every single grain of sand separately, not only in its spatial dimensions but also – somehow – sensed its individual weight. All was in slow, ineluctable motion. Between sharply contoured rocks scuttled tiny, scorpion-like creatures. One senses the extreme complexity but inevitability of this strange combination of leaden, slowly-moving sand and sudden flashes of intensely coloured movement.
When I then discovered the Matta I immediately recollected the dream; a very short while later I had created the basic outline and world of sensible values for the orchestral work which then arose.

https://www.youtube.com/v/qxbpF_aW4vU

[SymphonicAddict]

Nice to hear the Loeffler again. My favourite work on the Koch CD is the one not mentioned on the front of the CD - 'The Masks' by Ronald Lo Presti (thanks to jowcol for alerting me to this fine and under appreciated composer)

Here are some favourite tone poems, off the top of my head:

Lyatoshinsky: Grazhnya
Bax: Tintagel, Nympholept, November Woods
Mcewan: Where the Wild Thyme Blows
Lilburn: A Song of the Islands
Rachmaninov: The Isle of the Dead
Reger: The Isle of the Dead and The Old Violinist (from the Bocklin Suite)
Holst: Egdon Heath
Tchaikovsky: Francesca da Rimini
Sibelius: Tapiola, The Bard, The Oceanides
Alwyn: The Magic Island
Hanson: Pan and the Priest
Koechlin: Vers la Voute etoilee
Miaskovsky: Silence
Meulemans 'Pliny's Fountain'
Moeran: In the Mountain Country
Ciurlionis: The Sea
Glazunov: Stenka Razin
Farrar: English Pastoral Impressions, Heroic Elegy.
Ireland: Mai-Dun, The Forgotten Rite
Novak: In the Tatra Mountains

A very substantial list. There are some of them I don't know yet (Meulemans, Miaskovsky, Alwyn, Lilburn, Hanson), which I have to investigate. I had forgotten Stenka Razin, In the Tatra Mountains, and Tintagel (all of them are excellent of course). I should have included more tone poems by Sibelius (Pohjola's Daughter, The Oceanides, Tapiola, Spring Song).

[SymphonicAddict]

The Enormous Room and The Pleasure Dome of Kublai Khan are other tone poems I should investigate. Oh God, how much music to discover!!! 

[André]

The more I read, the more I find great suggestions  . The discussion on what is a tone/symphonic poem is also very enriching. 

I think there is a difference between the two terms, 'symphonic poem' being somewhat self-explanatory, whereas tone poem (or 'poem in sound') is both wider in scope and vaguer in its structure and instrumentation. Can compositions for strings such as Metamorphosen, Rakastava or Verklärte Nacht or Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima be called tone poems, for example ?

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

The more I read, the more I find great suggestions  . The discussion on what is a tone/symphonic poem is also very enriching. 

I think there is a difference between the two terms, 'symphonic poem' being somewhat self-explanatory, whereas tone poem (or 'poem in sound') is both wider in scope and vaguer in its structure and instrumentation. Can compositions for strings such as Metamorphosen, Rakastava or Verklärte Nacht or Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima be called tone poems, for example ?

I think all of these except for the last were composed with at least some non-musical inspiration that makes it appropriate to describe them as 'tone poems'