Audiences hate modern classical music because their brains cannot cope

[Mirror Image]

That's fine, of course.  We're not affected by music in the same way is kind of a yes-&-no proposition, I think, which is why we all find it valuable to discuss music (why some of us find the copy-&-paste activity valuable, I cannot say  ).  I think it's no great distance from the idea that, of all our personalities, each of us is unique as a totality, but probably none of us is unique in any one particular.

No argument here. We're all in the same boat but thankfully that boat sways in different directions. I know I should limit my Jamesian cut-and-paste activity but I suppose I'm just trying to share my enthusiasm in some way.

[Florestan]

each of us is unique as a totality, but probably none of us is unique in any one particular.

This implies by necessity that the whole is different, and more important, than the sum of its parts --- and while it might be good psychology, it can open a whole (pun intended) can of sociological, economic and political worms. 

[Karl Henning]

This implies by necessity that the whole is different, and more important, than the sum of its parts

Why by necessity, in what way more important, and why should we need to apply the idea to other spheres without adjustment? 

[Florestan]

Why by necessity, in what way more important, and why should we need to apply the idea to other spheres without adjustment? 

Answering all those questions would highjack the thread and I´m not sure our brains can cope with that. 

[some guy]

When I listen to a piece of music, whether straightforward or complex, I want to feel some kind of gratification and want to feel compelled to listen again.

Yeah, me too (among other things).

But I like quite a lot of contemporary classical music.

I.e., whatever may be true for you and Karl, you and I appear (appear)* to want the same (broad) things from music, and yet....

See, the sub-text, no matter what you may protest on the surface level, still does appear to be saying that contemporary music is in and of itself less gratifying.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

*I suspect at this broad level, you two are not really out to get different things from music.

[Cato]

  Yet even a professional musician I know grits her teeth when her ensemble has to perform a twelve-tone work by Schoenberg.

Atonal works that initially strike my ear as noise don't arouse the desire to know them more intimately. And in the few instances where I've forced myself to listen to such a work say, three or four times, the effort has been unrewarded. 

When I was much younger (I have related the story here before), Schoenberg's tonal work Pelleas und Melisande did not gel for me at all!  But knowing that Schoenberg was a great composer, I kept trying, and suddenly after the fourth try, and some months of not trying, Herbert von Karajan and company made everything come together.  Most probably the unconscious was assembling things for me during the pause, a not unknown phenomenon.

Oddly, I had no trouble grasping the Five Pieces for Orchestra, Erwartung, Die Glueckliche Hand etc.!  And that was during my attempts to comprehend Pelleas und Melisande.

If we substitute familiarity with study, I agree.  Or make it familiarity and/or study.  Without necessarily requiring the chore vibe of study, just continuing to listen to a piece can open it up to us sub-consciously over time.

As proven above!  But this can work in broadening the ears to begin with: Alexander Tcherepnin's main advice to me was always "listen to more kinds of music!"  Simple, but true!  And if repeated acquaintance still does not change the opinion, then the kind of music may not be for you!

[Florestan]

if repeated acquaintance still does not change the opinion, then the kind of music may not be for you!

Indeed, simple but true. 

[Elgarian]

If we substitute familiarity with study, I agree.  Or make it familiarity and/or study.  Without necessarily requiring the chore vibe of study, just continuing to listen to a piece can open it up to us sub-consciously over time.

Yes yes, that's exactly what I meant in my earlier post by 'taking time and/or work'. 'Work' was a poor choice of word on my part. Sometimes sheer repetition is all that's needed, as you say (though that can be a 'kill or cure' method).

That initial siren call, though, can be hard to hear sometimes - there has to be something that's interesting enough to draw me back after that first listen, and often it's no more than a mere niggle - an itch that I need to scratch.

It's when there's no niggle at all that the situation is probably doomed.

[James]

That initial siren call, though, can be hard to hear sometimes - there has to be something that's interesting enough to draw me back after that first listen, and often it's no more than a mere niggle - an itch that I need to scratch.

Can you be more specific about this, relate to your own experiences  ..

[Karl Henning]

*I suspect at this broad level, you two are not really out to get different things from music.

We may or may not be.

[Elgarian]

Can you be more specific about this, relate to your own experiences  ..

The most memorable example was the discovery of Wagner a long, long time ago - mid-late 1970s. I had this collection of Gotterdammerung highlights, listened to it, and really struggled to get anything from the experience at all. But a couple of days later, for no reason I could explain except that something unidentifiable was niggling, I listened again. This kept on happening until maybe two weeks later, after  half a dozen listenings, I was enjoying chunks of the stuff and getting quite carried away. Couldn't believe it. Within a few months I'd bought  a set of the whole Ring (quite something, because I hadn't much cash to spare), and I was well away.

My reaction to several composers has followed a similar patterm: initial not-quite-indifference but no great enthusiasm ... but something I can't define just prodding away and whispering 'go on, just try that again' - leading eventually to total 'conversion'.

[James]

The most memorable example was the discovery of Wagner a long, long time ago - mid-late 1970s. I had this collection of Gotterdammerung highlights, listened to it, and really struggled to get anything from the experience at all. But a couple of days later, for no reason I could explain except that something unidentifiable was niggling, I listened again. This kept on happening until maybe two weeks later, after  half a dozen listenings, I was enjoying chunks of the stuff and getting quite carried away. Couldn't believe it. Within a few months I'd bought  a set of the whole Ring (quite something, because I hadn't much cash to spare), and I was well away.

My reaction to several composers has followed a similar patterm: initial not-quite-indifference but no great enthusiasm ... but something I can't define just prodding away and whispering 'go on, just try that again' - leading eventually to total 'conversion'.

Did you ever ask yourself why etc. while this was happening? When you were in the disagreement phase, listening and noticing things .. as in, what specific moments or qualities of what you were hearing were not connecting or turning you off? Sounds like to me that where you were at as a listener (a real skill) just wasn't up to where the music was (most often the case).

Art/classical music especially requires more time and repetition, there is more often than not more to listen-for, much more .. and beyond surface and expression .. the first encounter is like a mere flirtation.

[Karl Henning]

Did you ever ask yourself why etc. while this was happening?

No, James. You are the only soul here at GMG brave enough to ask yourself "why?"

[San Antone]

Modern (post-tonal) music is not the only kind of music that can require work/study/repetition to appreciate. 

[Karl Henning]

Modern (post-tonal) music is not the only kind of music that can require work/study/repetition to appreciate.

Excellent observation.

[Cato]

Modern (post-tonal) music is not the only kind of music that can require work/study/repetition to appreciate.

As shown by Elgarian's experience with Wagner.

No, James. You are the only soul here at GMG brave enough to ask yourself "why?"

I did not realize that! 

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

On Schoenberg:

I love the String Trio, but Pelleas and Melisande I too seem to like less. Perhaps it is familiarity, perhaps it's easier for me to listen to the String Trio because that kind of music is what people generally think of when they think of Schoenberg, and his late-romantic tonal music is less so.....I think expectation is a stronger argument than familiarity when it comes to liking a piece or a genre.

[James]

Modern (post-tonal) music is not the only kind of music that can require work/study/repetition to appreciate.

Pantonality is tonal still just more influx and not as obvious in terms of polarity .. but anyway, the gist of what you are saying was certainly the case for me .. there was a bit of an adjustment going from song-form popular music(s) & jazz .. to modern/20th century art music (thorough composed extended forms, more elaborate textures, broader colors) but I found that the older stuff (Romantic, Classical, Baroque etc.) was much harder to appreciate and get into at first (more time), especially compared to the newer more current art music of our time with all it's savage rhythms, percussion, dissonance, electronics, abstraction etc.

[Karl Henning]

On Schoenberg:

I love the String Trio, but Pelleas and Melisande I too seem to like less. Perhaps it is familiarity, perhaps it's easier for me to listen to the String Trio because that kind of music is what people generally think of when they think of Schoenberg, and his late-romantic tonal music is less so.....I think expectation is a stronger argument than familiarity when it comes to liking a piece or a genre.

That's a nice change from the "the only Schoenberg I like is Verklärte Nacht" table 

[Mirror Image]

I wasn't talking to you asshole. I was inquiring further to get some real specifics from Elgarian, if there are any. Butt out.

Karl, is it time for 'James Bingo' again?