Audiences hate modern classical music because their brains cannot cope

[Rinaldo]

E.g most of Bach's keyboard music were boring chains of (usually) fast notes without melody for me, even after I had loved the Brandenburg concertos (and lots of Mozart or Beethoven) for years. But a few years later this became some of my favorite music.

So what helped you to 'break those chains'? Familiarity? Studying the individual compositions? Acid?

I once had the idea that great works of Art are in some respects like persons. One should treat them with respect and as autonomous beings not as means for one's own ends (like pleasure or relaxation). Sure, there might be some with whom we will not get along. But if we expect them to serve our purpose we should expect that we will not experience the full scale of what they are.

Bravo!

But I suggest that there has to be some initial spark of interest for one to move onto a second or third listening.

Yes, and in my case, that spark doesn't have to come from listening to the music itself. I kept giving Mahler a try, just because of all the specific Mahlerian glee I've encountered here on GMG. Trying to hear what others hear or simply get an idea where they're coming from.

[Cato]

Yes, and in my case, that spark doesn't have to come from listening to the music itself. I kept giving Mahler a try, just because of all the specific Mahlerian glee I've encountered here on GMG. Trying to hear what others hear or simply get an idea where they're coming from.

"All we are aaaasskiiing

Is give Mahler a chaaaance!"  0:)

Very interesting thoughts, class!  Very nice!  Many thanks for your analyses of your experiences!

Allow me to quote two reactions from people of very different ages (18 and 56) to a piece of Kammermusik:

"I like the selection of instrumentation, along with the soprano, of course, it all yields a very disturbing composition, both in tone and texture.  There's definitely a ... signature sound — and the text I believe enveloped around the music as much as the music wove through the text."  (Age 56)

"I...was extremely emotionally riveted by it!... -- Supreme emotion is essential to all superlative music!!!"  (Age 18)

Which era did the work in question hail from?

The summer of...

2015: From the Pit of a Cave in the Cloud by Karl Henning

Karl's style of course is unique, but for these listeners at least, the first hearing convinced them of the presence of a highly emotional expression.

What is it that attracted them?  I suspect even they cannot say, except the totality of the sounds and the words combined to hit them in some way.

Their brains could cope!   

[Jo498]

So what helped you to 'break those chains'? Familiarity? Studying the individual compositions? Acid?

In most cases I cannot really tell. It was probably just familiarity, that is listening despite rather indifferent reactions. In the case of Bach's piano music this worked with a few works like the Goldberg variations and some of the partitas but overall I think that one reason was that I played arrangements of some of these pieces on the clarinet with my teacher.

With Mahler's 9th I probably got used to the strange sound of the beginning or it did not sound so strange when I tried a different recording and once one got used to it, the emotional impact was almost overwhelming. I had heard other Mahler like the symphonies 1,2,4 and 5 before, so I was not completely unfamiliar with the style.

Of course, in cases like Bach, Mahler, Debussy there is such a strong consensus that this is great music that one has a motivation to keep trying.

[Elgarian]

... in my case, that spark doesn't have to come from listening to the music itself. I kept giving Mahler a try, just because of all the specific Mahlerian glee I've encountered here on GMG. Trying to hear what others hear or simply get an idea where they're coming from.

Oh yes - that can be important for me too. Sometimes you just don't want to be left out of the party; and although that desire may not be enough in itself (I don't think I was ever able to persuade myself that I could enjoy a piece of music just because someone else did), it can provide the motivation to give the music 'one more try'. For me, that persistence is the thing - something, anything, that encourages the one-more-try syndrome.

[Karl Henning]

Merely trying it again may not bring anything new to the experience.  Even if indefinably, a fellow listener's enthusiasm and remarks can be illuming.

[Cato]

With Mahler's 9th I probably got used to the strange sound of the beginning or it did not sound so strange when I tried a different recording and once one got used to it, the emotional impact was almost overwhelming. I had heard other Mahler like the symphonies 1,2,4 and 5 before, so I was not completely unfamiliar with the style.

The fragmentary nature of the opening has made me wonder how much of an effect it may have had on Anton Webern.  But parts of the Seventh Symphony (e.g. the Nachtmusik) have that fragmentary element also.

Familiarity might have helped, since the opening elements are woven throughout the work, e.g.  the four-note motif of the beginning also re-appearing, and struggling to do so, at the end.

[Jo498]

I do not know enough Webern, but I also think that Mahler's 9th symphony was very important for Schoenberg, Berg and Webern, although these guys were already well "on their way" with their own brand of strange sounds by 1910.

And the muted horn passage definitely sounds "weirder" in some interpretations than in others.

I think because the way pattern recognition and similar stuff seem to work in the brain, mere repetition can explain quite a bit.

[Elgarian]

Merely trying it again may not bring anything new to the experience.  Even if indefinably, a fellow listener's enthusiasm and remarks can be illuming.

There is also, of course, torture by comfy cushions as a means of persuasion. Few can withstand that.

[Karl Henning]

I stayed in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven, and I was powerless to resist.

[Florestan]

But have you not encountered music that you found boring/pointless/not very attractive at the first (few) listening(s)?

I suppose you mean Baroque, Classical or Romantic music.

Of course I did. Something like "This has been going on for too long, it's high time that it ends!" (reaction to Dvorak's SQs) or "What's the point of all this, I wonder?" (reaction to Niels Gade's Symphonies). But it was never something like "I must turn it off right now!" or "I'm done with this work / composer for good and I won''t be listening to it / his music ever again!"

There is a lot of music from Bach to Bartok I liked immediately. But there is also quite a bit I could hardly connect with at all although I usually did not find it strongly repulsive.

Well, exactly. If it's not strongly repulsive, I usually give it a second try, or even third.

E.g most of Bach's keyboard music were boring chains of (usually) fast notes without melody for me,

When played on harpsichord it fits in your description exactly, but on piano there is quite a different matter. I instantly liked Maria Tipo, or Rosalynd Tureck, or Murray Perahia or Sviatoslav Richter.

Debussy was a "wall of sound" with hardly distinguishable motives or structure, not to speak of melodies. This is still a composer where I do not react very strongly but I do like some pieces and they do not sound like melody-less sound-clouds anymore.

Can't say he is among my faves but I like his music --- like, not love, mind you.

BTW, my first reaction to music falls basically into 5 categories:

1. Love: "Wow! This is absolutely great and I wouldn't want to be without it!"

2. Like : "This I'm certainly going to listen to at least a second time!"

3. Not dislike: "If I ever feel like listening to it again I will!"

4. Mild rejection, Rossini manner: "this is too intricate to be judged at a first hearing, but I shall not give it a second."

5. Outright rejection, Florestan manner: "This is garbage and I'll be damned if I ever waste my time on it anymore."

When I first heard Mahler's 9th in the radio with 17 or 18 I found the beginning downright ugly because of the muted horn and the strange sounds. Two years later or so it had become a favorite piece.

The first Mahler I've ever heard was the 3rd Symphony and I was instantly enthralled. To this day it is my favorite. I confess, though, that I'd rather hear Mahler live in concert hall than recorded --- there is a huge difference between the two experiences.

[Karl Henning]

You know, for a moment there, my brain coped.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Merely trying it again may not bring anything new to the experience.  Even if indefinably, a fellow listener's enthusiasm and remarks can be illuming.

I think there may be a certain attitude associated to the liking of any certain music (and this applies for ALL music, not just modern classical music). It's where we put aside any 'expectations' or biases from other opinions or comparisons with works we usually hear. Once the mind is clear of those things, it is easy to learn to love any sound. I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as a bad sound, let alone bad music, unless the sound is produced with the intent of causing harm of course. I embrace sounds and enjoy the way human beings can create such individual aesthetics in their compositions, their organisations of such sounds. Merely trying a piece again only brings nothing new if the listener chooses to keep their mind closed. I have made this mistake (especially regarding Vaughan Williams, Rachmaninov, Sibelius, Brahms and Elgar) but once this mistake on the listener's behalf is made apparent, it is easy to change.

[jochanaan]

...(I don't think I was ever able to persuade myself that I could enjoy a piece of music just because someone else did)...

That depends on who the someone is.  If it's a person I just met on the street, and I can tell s/he has no musical training and little experience, I would not give their suggestions any weight unless they agreed with my own curiosity; but if, say, our estimable Karl Henning were to suggest a piece, I might waste no time looking it up.

[Elgarian]

That depends on who the someone is.  If it's a person I just met on the street, and I can tell s/he has no musical training and little experience, I would not give their suggestions any weight unless they agreed with my own curiosity; but if, say, our estimable Karl Henning were to suggest a piece, I might waste no time looking it up.

Oh yes certainly. I didn't say that the recommendations of others weren't helpful (I owe an enormous debt to such recommendations down the years). My comment was a more trivial and obvious one: that if I were struggling to enjoy some particular piece of music, I wouldn't be able to persuade myself that I did merely by reflecting that Karl (or any other valued chum) recommended it. (Though that knowledge might help me to persist a little more.)

[71 dB]

When played on harpsichord it fits in your description exactly, but on piano there is quite a different matter. I instantly liked Maria Tipo, or Rosalynd Tureck, or Murray Perahia or Sviatoslav Richter.

The sound of piano makes it easier to follow the counterpointal lines, I believe. All of the notes begin to make sense.

[jochanaan]

The sound of piano makes it easier to follow the counterpointal lines, I believe. All of the notes begin to make sense.

Interesting.  I actually find the opposite to be true; I hear the lines more clearly when played on harpsichord.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I honestly can't tell what I think of a piece on first listen. I don't struggle to listen to it, but my taste always changes and expands over time anyway, so my opinion naturally always changes about any piece of music.

[Cato]

I should mention something about coping:

I have occasionally played parts of Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to my 8th Grade Latin classes, after they have translated parts of the Latin poem, which Carter used as his inspiration.

The reaction to this (especially for them) unusual work has been in general positive, (although I suspect none of them rushed to download it.   )  Comments as to how the music related to the text were interesting.

They coped quite well!  And no obvious "struggle" occurred.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I should mention something about coping:

I have occasionally played parts of Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei to my 8th Grade Latin classes, after they have translated parts of the Latin poem, which Carter used as his inspiration.

The reaction to this (especially for them) unusual work has been in general positive, (although I suspect none of them rushed to download it.   )  Comments as to how the music related to the text were interesting.

They coped quite well!  And no obvious "struggle" occurred.

There's an English teacher on another forum I used to visit who would play all sorts of music in the classroom every now and then. The biggest hit? Black Angels by George Crumb.

[jochanaan]

There's an English teacher on another forum I used to visit who would play all sorts of music in the classroom every now and then. The biggest hit? Black Angels by George Crumb.