The sort of music you dislike

[DavidRoss]

Some days it is very clear how grateful I should be to know what an ignorant soul I am!

[Scarpia]

I'll admit that in Ravel's case, his orchestration is wonderful-- and the tradeoff is closer.

In cases where Ravel prepared an orchestral version of a piano piece I almost always prefer the piano version.  Tomba de Couperin, and the Pavane immediately come to mind. 

I distinctly remember first hearing the two piano version of Debussy's Prelude to the afternoon of a Faun.  I was shocked at how much of the "color" I attributed to orchestration was in the harmony.

[jowcol]

I distinctly remember first hearing the two piano version of Debussy's Prelude to the afternoon of a Faun.  I was shocked at how much of the "color" I attributed to orchestration was in the harmony.

Excellent point!  I think the reason I go for piano versions (reductions, transcriptions, or originals) is that the structure is clearer in terms of harmony, etc.   

You know, Bax's keyboard works didn't really rock my world, and I adore his symphonies--- and that is because the orchestral color is such a large part of what he delivers.

[Fëanor]

... In general I dislike bombastic music, tedious music, and music that takes itself too damned seriously!  ...

Bruckner, most definitely.

[MDL]

In my young and intemperate days, when I went through a phase of listening to nothing but post-1950 avant-garde music, I would find it very easy to declare that I disliked, say, Tchaikovsky or Italian opera.

But now I'm all growed up and that, I find it hard to actually dislike any classical music. There's plenty of music that I know little about and haven't got into yet (Haydn remains a closed book for example), but I'm hoping that the old cliché about strangers just being friends that you haven't met yet applies to those composers I've been too lazy to investigate.

When it comes to pop music, I can't stand most hip-hop, rap, girl/boyband slush ballads any anything involving Mariah Carey-esque who-o-o-o-o-o-a-a-a--e-e-e-e-y-y-y-y-e-e-e-e-a-a-a-a-h-h-h-h warbling, but I suppose that's stating the obvious.

[greg]

Which reminds me...
never once heard a single song I liked played at the radio station where I worked- and I've worked there almost 2 1/2 years (pop "muzak").

During the 4 years of high school, when the radio was being played during my trips to and from school every day, the only music that was played was rap and country. Not once did I hear a country song I liked, and there were only maybe 3 rap songs with moments in them that I kinda liked. 

Now, I like A LOT of music. But why is it that people who program radio stations are absolutely intent on making me hate the radio? 

[(poco) Sforzando]

A few years ago, when I was first getting really interested in classical music, I came across the name Palestrina and thought I'd check his work out. Somehow, I ended up with Pfitzner's Palestrina instead - the Kubelik recording with the big blue cross on the cover. Don't ask me how - sometimes I really doubt my reading comprehension skills. I listened to it once; as I recall, it was pretty tedious...

Some years ago the Royal Opera from Covent Garden performed the complete Palestrina at the Met during a Lincoln Center Festival. I sat through the whole thing thinking, (a) "I'm glad I had a chance to hear this thing" and (b) "I absolutely never want to hear it again."

[(poco) Sforzando]

I was always curious in regards to No. 8 what percussion players do when they are not needed.  For example an orchestra has a battery of percussion players and if they are doing a work with just a single cymbal crash at the end, isn't that rather boring for the percussion player who has to read the entire score as the music is playing so he is ready at the end?  And what of the other percussion players?  And what about programs of music with NO percussion, are they given time off without pay?  It just seems so wrong on so many levels for composers to neglect percussion in so many of their compositions.

"Then . . .  they had this Christmas thing they have at Radio City every year. All these angels start coming out of the boxes and everywhere, guys carrying crucifixes and stuff all over the place, and the whole bunch of them -- thousands of them -- singing "Come All Ye Faithful!" like mad. Big deal. It's supposed to be religious as hell, I know, and very pretty and all, but I can't see anything religious or pretty, for God's sake, about a bunch of actors carrying crucifixes all over the stage. When they were all finished and started going out the boxes again, you could tell they could hardly wait to get a cigarette or something. I saw it with old Sally Hayes the year before, and she kept saying how beautiful it was, the costumes and all. I said old Jesus probably would've puked if He could see it -- all those fancy costumes and all. Sally said I was a sacrilegious atheist. I probably am. The thing Jesus really would've liked would be the guy that plays the kettle drums in the orchestra. I've watched that guy since I was about eight years old. My brother Allie and I, if we were with our parents and all, we used to move our seats and go way down so we could watch him. He's the best drummer I ever saw. He only gets a chance to bang them a couple of times during the whole piece, but he never looks bored when he isn't doing it. Then when he does bang them, he does it so nice and sweet, with this nervous expression on his face. One time we went to Washington with my father, Allie sent him a postcard, but I'll bet he never got it. We weren't too sure how to address it."

-- from J.D. Salinger, "The Catcher in the Rye," chapter 18

[(poco) Sforzando]

Wasn't there a story (perhaps an urban myth) about a percussionist, possibly in a Broadway show, whose only role each night was to whack a tam-tam once in the grand finale? Each night he would sleep throughout the entire performance, relying on a colleague to nudge him awake at the appropriate cue a few seconds before his big moment, when he would leap up and whack the instrument. This routine worked fine for a few months until somebody nudged him by mistake whereupon he let fly with an almighty crash right in the middle of a tender love duet. That was his last night in the show, obviously.

It could be a load of old bollocks, but I like it.

Too long to quote, but too funny to miss:
http://www.blacklistedjournalist.com/column100a.html

[(poco) Sforzando]

6. i dont get R. Schumann (is he a fish or a bird?- a piano-chamber- lied- operatic-- or symphonic composer?)

A key point about Schumann that theorists have always recognized is that he never departs from 4-bar phrases. This tends to give some of his music a rather pedestrian quality that can be heard even in the earlier Papillons for piano but decidedly in some of the symphonic music (the finale of the Rhenish comes to mind).

But then there is the extraordinary lyric gift that just springs to ardent life in the best of his work. From the symphonies, I'd nominate the slow movement of #2 above all. But it's not the symphonies where you find Schumann at his soaring best. Look instead to the best of the piano music - Carnaval, Kreisleriana, the Fantasy - and some of the songs, such as the Dichterliebe, which I think the most consistent of his song cycles.

[mahler10th]

Country Western.  What a lot of lovesick nonsense in melodies a five year old could come up with.  I can't stand it.
Jazz.  It annoys the bones out of me when it is coupled with Classical Music - the only decent Jazz I've heard is by Monk.  I would listen to him again no problem.

[DavidW]

I've actually grown to like some hip hop and rap, never thought that would happen!   I still don't care for country, not hatred but apathy.  That's a shame because there are a ton of country stations around here, and in fact there are no mainstream pop stations just country, christian, npr and classic rock.

Now I used to not really care about jazz, but I listened to Miles Davis Kind of Blue a couple of weeks ago after a long gap and boy I loved it, I need to hear more, more, more!!

[MN Dave]

I still don't care for country, not hatred but apathy.

Johnny? Hank? Merle? George? Uncle Dave? Carter Family?

[DavidW]

Johnny? Hank? Merle? George? Uncle Dave? Carter Family?

Should I know these people?

[jowcol]

Country Western.  What a lot of lovesick nonsense in melodies a five year old could come up with.  I can't stand it.
Jazz.  It annoys the bones out of me when it is coupled with Classical Music - the only decent Jazz I've heard is by Monk.  I would listen to him again no problem.

Monk is great-- there were many other worthy artists in that time period.  Late 50's Miles Davis and Mingus,  and Early 60s John Coltrane is stuff I consider some of the most important music of the century (in my own, admittedly warped hierarchy- your mileage may very)

Much as I love Jazz and "Classical" , I'd have to agree the most of the crossovers haven't impressed me-- but I think I prefer  when Jazz musicians try to play classical than the other way around. 

[Franco]

I have to jump in here and defend Country music.

I live in Nashville, and grew up in and spent the majority of my life in the South.

One really needs to understand Southern culture to fully appreciate Country music - but even if one knows nothing about the South, there is enough good in Country music to transcend regional appeal.  What many perceive as low-brow "Hee-Haw" kind of writing is really sly self-deprecation.  There are many very well written Country songs, and I would argue that Country songwriters are much more craft oriented than what is found in any other modern song writing form - the only real competition is from the Great American Songbook, popular song writing from 1930-1960, e.g. Berlin, Porter, Gershwin, Arlen, Mercer, Carmichael, etc. 

Nashville is a town with a songwriting community, distinct from the musicians, bands and artists - a community of folks who do nothing but write songs - they go into their publisher's office and write songs, it is a professional occupation.  This is not found is most music towns, where the bands are self-contained and generally write their own material.  Nashville songwriters are real writers - they know what they are doing, but most of their best work is only heard in clubs when they perform in casual get-togethers called Writers Nights.

The melodies can be poignant, or hackneyed depending on the style of the song.  But this is true of all forms of popular music.  Country like Blues and Rock has standard forms which utilize similar thematic material, and melodic phrases, and structure of the song - again this is not a defect of Country music, but a hallmark of the short distance it has traveled from its roots in folk, blues, gospel and mountain music.

Much of Rock came out of Country, Carl Perkins (Blue Suede Shoes) and other Rockabilly artists came directly out of Country music.  Early George Jones is very much like early Elvis Presley, who was really nothing but a a country/gospel singer in much of his stylistic influences.

For sure the corporate product that appears on country radio is crass and commercial - but so is what used to be called Top Forty pop.  The best of Country, like the best of any kind of music, is found a bit off the beaten track, although some of the best, Vince Gill, Keith Whitley, Trisha Yearwood, Lee Ann Womack, and many others, has dominated the mainstream.

I am not advocating that everyone should like Country music, but I just like to make its case from time to time to people who clearly have not spent much time listening to good country music and assume it is worthless based on the superficial exposure they have had.

It most definitely is not worthless.

[MN Dave]

I have to jump in here and defend Country music.

It most definitely is not worthless.

Of course it isn't.

[jowcol]

I have to jump in here and defend Country music.

<snip>

It most definitely is not worthless.

Well said!  I must admit that I haven't dug deep in the genre(and may not in the future...), but the influences of country on some of the blues and  rock I love is unmistakable, and your points about the craft and emphasis on songwriting are very interesting. 


There is a point I made in my long rant earlier in this thread that, in a good discussion, you can learn to appreciate your music more just be observing how others appreciate their music, whether you care for it or not.    That is one of the greatest benefits one can get in a forum like this.   Franco, you did a great job of increasing my awareness, and I appreciate that.   I may need to dig up some Bob Wills, Patsy Cline, or even some Kentucky Headhunters this evening....

[mahler10th]

jowcol

I may need to dig up some Bob Wills, Patsy Cline, or even some Kentucky Headhunters this evening....

What a disturbing conclusion.   

Thank you Franco for the summary of Country Western.  It has enriched my understanding of Country Western, but not too much, as...

...they go into their publisher's office and write songs, it is a professional occupation.

I have decided to charter a flight over to Nashville tomorrow morning to go to those publishers offices and lay out some songs.  I will make a fortune.  I'll compose them on the flight over.   

But I'll tell you what, I actually like Johnny Cash.  His voice and lyrics seem embedded in poverty, love and violence, he's singing about the hard end of life so many go through but so many others misunderstand, and he's singing it because he's lived it.  Er...I like Willie Nelson too, he comes from the same mindset.  Actually...there is some Country music I like...

[Scarpia]

One really needs to understand Southern culture to fully appreciate Country music - but even if one knows nothing about the South, there is enough good in Country music to transcend regional appeal.  What many perceive as low-brow "Hee-Haw" kind of writing is really sly self-deprecation.  There are many very well written Country songs, and I would argue that Country songwriters are much more craft oriented than what is found in any other modern song writing form - the only real competition is from the Great American Songbook, popular song writing from 1930-1960, e.g. Berlin, Porter, Gershwin, Arlen, Mercer, Carmichael, etc. 

Nashville is a town with a songwriting community, distinct from the musicians, bands and artists - a community of folks who do nothing but write songs - they go into their publisher's office and write songs, it is a professional occupation.  This is not found is most music towns, where the bands are self-contained and generally write their own material.  Nashville songwriters are real writers - they know what they are doing, but most of their best work is only heard in clubs when they perform in casual get-togethers called Writers Nights.

This is actually what I find most unappealing about Nashville culture, the fact that they manufacture songs as if they were shoes.  I do enjoy a fair bit of folk-music, but music that has some personality and authenticity to it, not the Nashville commodity music.