The Romantics in Period Performances

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I have not heard that recording either. But I have heard Ravel's own recording of the Bolero, and it exhibits a degree of freedom in phrasing that I miss in the standard 20th-century performances.

Personally, I don't object to the idea of HIP so much as to the fact that I've rarely heard HIP performances that exhibit the kind of musicianship I've found in the best mainstream recordings. (For example, there was that Schoondervoert LvB 4-5 that I saw people raving about here, and I bought it and found it seriously deficient in all kinds of ways. I've gone into this previously here, but for one thing he hasn't the vaguest idea how to create a Beethoven cadenza.) I've become gun-shy about acquiring HIP recordings, and you'll never convince me that Bach really wanted OVPP, as if there should be no distinction between solos and choruses.

What happens too over time is that the mainstream absorbs HIP influence. You won't hear mainstream Bach played in the ponderous way Otto Klemperer led the Brandenburgs or the SMP. Mainstream performers know how to double-dot their French overture rhythms and to reduce orchestra size for Haydn and Mozart.

But what bothers me too is my sense that HIPs want to wipe the slate clean and remove "encrustations" that may also represent a tradition of performance that dates back to the original creation of a work. Obviously when a tradition is passed down it can become distorted, but it can also be transmitted meaningfully. Beethoven taught Czerny, Czerny taught Liszt, Liszt had numerous pupils whose teaching led to the classic pianists of the mainstream of the 20th century. With many of these artists there is a "rightness" in phrasing that I miss in a lot of HIP performance. Just this morning I turned to Harnoncourt's LvB 1 with the COE, and with all his finicky treatment of detail I felt that the symphony just didn't flow, that it felt abnormally and ponderously long as it never does with Szell or Toscanini. And yet for all the detail, Harnoncourt's opening two measures flatten out the forte-subito piano dynamics written in the score in favor of a uniform and barely differentiated mezzo forte. If this is HIP, I want no part of it.

I would say also that the history of a work is not only a matter of recapturing its early performances - even if such were possible - as the traditions that grow over time as the work is performed and recorded over and over. Thus whether Beethoven or Brahms or Chopin would have "approved" of such or such a performance is unknowable and irrelevant. And sometimes how the work is performed over time becomes part of its history. Even Puccini is relevant here. The high B at the end of Nessun Dorma, which is written as a short, 16-note upbeat in the score and was sung by the tenor that way on the first recording, is now invariably heard as (at least) a full whole note on the downbeat and it would be inconceivable to hear it otherwise today. No doubt some HIP tenor could sing it as a short 16th and say that he is clearing the aria of the "encrustations" of tradition, but he would be booed out of the opera house, and rightly so.

Anyway, that's what I think about it all. Throw whatever brickbats you like; I don't really care.

Overall I think there's much food for thought in what you say. After all, it's not called "interpretation" for nothing!

But I do think "encrustations" can be a double-edged sword. Obviously it's a genuine treat to hear tradition handed down via recordings, and certainly not just for "archival" reasons. Music lives and breathes no matter what the era, which I agree can get somewhat lost amid HIP dogma.

But it IS true that certain music can get lost in the haze of history only to be resurrected decades or even centuries later. Depending on one's point of view, I suppose, what either hurts or helps this revival is the CURRENT musical tradition entrenched at the time of revival.

Bach's revival will always be a cause for great celebration but had Bach not fallen completely off the radar for so long couldn't there have been something of a "Bach tradition" already in place by the time the romantics got to him? As it was the romantics basically got to him completely "cold" and had to go off what their instincts and scholarship at the time told them. No bad thing obviously but suppose something of a "Bach tradition" had already existed? IOW, Bach had never died! In that case there's the possibility Bach would've gotten to the romantics in something of a "pre-packaged" form and what "revival" there was merely amplified Bach's already known qualities. Subsequently Bach then might have passed through the hands of the romantics more or less "intact" and might have even reached those of us who came after in something of the "HIPish" form we're now growing accustomed to (but I agree, OVPP as a mandate is going tooooooo far).

This all assumes that what Bach tradition there might have been would've resembled what the HIPsters of today give us in performance. Not to mention there's always the possibility the romantics would've taken one look at that so-called "Bach tradition" and spat on it and morphed him into their own vision anyway. In which case all my conjecturing is moot!

But still, it seems to me no matter how you slice it it all falls under the umbrella of "interpretation". So seen in that light I tend to refrain from dismissing musical scholarship - HIP, romantic, or whatever - outright.

[FideLeo]

The Belgian pianist Jan Michiels has been recording various programmes by late romantics on period instruments, mainly for local labels like Eufoda and Etcetera.  I have his Liszt, Busoni and also this.  I do like his approach to the music.

http://www.youtube.com/v/HzlgAsq_6T8

[FideLeo]

From Dang Thai-Son's recent nocturne album in the Real Chopin series:


http://www.youtube.com/v/4YkXC0VhKII

Played on an original Erard fortepiano. 

[FideLeo]

Two more nocturnes from Alain Planès' recording called "Chez Pleyel"

Played on an original Pleyel fortepiano, obviously.


http://www.youtube.com/v/_zj1czmbrCw

[FideLeo]

http://www.youtube.com/v/GPTNHe9dCvI

[FideLeo]

http://www.youtube.com/v/jaRpgNQhcuo



Novelleten op.21
No. 2: Aussert rasch und mit Bravour - Intermezzo : Etwas langsamer, durchaus zart - Erstes Tempo

Piet Kuijken (Wieland's son) plays an original JB Streicher fortepiano (1850) for this set

[Gurn Blanston]

I have been finding a lot to enjoy in this one. Even though I am not the greatest fan in the world of Chopin, still, in smallish doses and well-played on a nice sounding instrument, I can handle a disk at a time quite nicely.

[FideLeo]

I have been finding a lot to enjoy in this one. Even though I am not the greatest fan in the world of Chopin, still, in smallish doses and well-played on a nice sounding instrument, I can handle a disk at a time quite nicely.

http://www.youtube.com/v/h-2z-ss_5sM

From his more recent Chopin disc:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ziZ2v_nIYmE

[Lethevich]

Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

[FideLeo]

Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

http://www.youtube.com/v/u9cGMoN0DnQ

[RJR]

To Divertmentian,
I have not heard that recording either. But I have heard Ravel's own recording of the Bolero, and it exhibits a degree of freedom in phrasing that I miss in the standard 20th-century performances.

It's also a lot shorter, about ten minutes.

[Lethevich]

Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

Whoops, seems that I forgot to thank you for this. Sadly that recording sounds more servicable than great - I think that the Florestan Trio have spoiled a lot of Schumann's chamber music for me with their "perfect" renditions - everything else compares unfavourably

[Antoine Marchand]

Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

Some of them (including some Clara's compositions and keyboard music):

I don't have this one (and not just Schumann), but it looks interesting:

[Lethevich]

Ooh, those Clara couplings look nice. I really enjoy discs with a joint programme by these two - a very appealing "something old, something new" experience.

[Antoine Marchand]

Yes there are several.  One fair example here:

BTW, apparently when Chandos released this disc, it already existed a previous recording on Amon Ra, including both compositions on period instruments. At least, so it's claimed by our Bulldog in this review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Dec03/Schumann_piano_quintet.htm

(The piano quintet is also included in the disc Für meine Clara, but the Chandos disc is previous). 

[Que]

Are there any period instrument Schumann chamber music recordings?

Q

[Bulldog]

BTW, apparently when Chandos released this disc, it already existed a previous recording on Amon Ra, including both compositions on period instruments. At least, so it's claimed by our Bulldog in this review:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Dec03/Schumann_piano_quintet.htm

My claim is correct, as the Amon Ra disc has been in my home for quite a few years.  Aside from the fact that Chandos really screwed up on its "premire recording on period instruments" claim, the Amon Ra is the better disc (especially concerning the soundstage).

[RJR]

  David W,I did not say that"it's not okay to play 19th century music on period instruments." I don't object tot he performances per se.
  What annoys me are those people who say that this is the only way and assume that they are "finally giving us performances of the music as it should actually sound".
  In fact, I HAVE enjoyed some of these performanes. But when people dismiss performances of anything on modern instruments snootily, as some critics and HIP performers do,that really gets my goat. How do they know that Schubert,Schumann,Mendelssohn,Brahms etc would not have loved the way musicians playing modern instruments if they could come back and hear them?

I'm with you on that one, Superhorn.

[FideLeo]

My claim is correct, as the Amon Ra disc has been in my home for quite a few years.

It's this one:

[asin]B00000204X[/asin]  (atrocious cover design)

I remember buying this after reading your review several years ago.  All I can say is that it's not really the 'better' disc for me.
We need more period performances of these works on disc, I think. 

La gaia scienza's recording of the quartet is on this one, but I have not tried nor heard it (mainly due to the undesirable coupling of Uri Caine.)

[asin]B00002DEDC[/asin]

[Bulldog]

It's this one:

[asin]B00000204X[/asin]  (atrocious cover design)

I remember buying this after reading your review several years ago.  All I can say is that it's not really the 'better' disc for me.

Do you recall the aspects of the Chandos that you preferred?