Duds of Genius

[Air]

Prokofiev's Second Symphony is a work of genius, there's no doubt about it.

It's shocking that someone would find a fault in Bach's music, especially his cantatas.

As for the recitatives, one must think of them in the context of the opera.  Operas are merely staged productions that integrate a libretto and a musical score.  It's much like a musical, in fact.  So when Figaro and Susanna are talking about (who knows what!) it is no different... in fact, I believe that composers saw this as a necessity for the plot to move along smoothly.

Of course, the major difference is that operatic recitatives are often well-written and have a highly musical purpose in the context of the opera itself.

[Chaszz]

... I find Mahler edging into this category. There's so much good stuff in his symphonies, but it's like a turkey draped in cheese and bacon, and stuffed with another turkey, which is in turn stuffed with quail's eggs - it's just too much!...

But what music could better exemplify the gargantuan end of Romanticism, like an obese brontosaurus, and the readiness of the culture for something else? Almost as if, if it didn't exist, it would have to be invented...

[Chaszz]

I'll disagree with this, they are often filled with charming counterpoint between the instruments in the background, making light of the singing but elevating the whole to excellent chamber music.  I think they are the heart of Bach's cantatas, and I usually find that they move me more than a perfunctory chorus at the end.  Not everyone is going to be some deep, moving aria like the one in bwv 82 (this seems to be threatening to replace the Archduke Trio for my favorite work) but overall they are still my favorite part of a Bach cantata.

And my least favorite part of any vocal work (especially operas)?  Recitative.  Screw the text, the meaning, the story, the plot etc, let's sing!

I was careful to say some of these, not all of them, are somewhat dull. Some are inspired, some formulaic, in my opinion. What you say about the counterpoint is certainly true of many of them, especially the ones with flute obligatto.
 

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

But seriously, it would be good to know what versions he has heard.

I had a version on Hanssler, I forget the exact forces involved. More recently, I got Konstantin Lifschitz's piano version on Orfeo.

I don't wish to knock the work too hard, it contains some good bits as one would expect with Bach. But as a whole it feels like a bunch of disconnected parts which creates a rather dry academic impression.

Serialism did not IMO inhibit Berg or Webern, but for Schoenberg himself, the inventor of the system, I think it proved a dead end.

Yes, well put. Ironic, eh?

My dud of genius? The Beethoven Violin Concerto, which I find his least satisfactory large-scale orchestral work.

Agree with this as well. Not a bad piece, but kind of uninspired. For small-scale dud LvB, the Serioso Quartet (Op. 95) is my choice. One of those experimental-sounding things that doesn't quite hang together.

[eyeresist]

But what music could better exemplify the gargantuan end of Romanticism, like an obese brontosaurus, and the readiness of the culture for something else? Almost as if, if it didn't exist, it would have to be invented...

But why not just put the brontosaurus on a diet?  They didn't have to put it down


Re Beethoven's violin concerto, it's not a top work but I like it. Brahms's violin concerto, on the other hand, is not a first-rate work of the master, in my opinion, and I find it distinctly meh to listen to.

[Sergeant Rock]

Hoping that Sarge keeps his machine-gun under control, I will mention an early Wagner work (I heard excerpts many moons ago) dedicated to dud-dom:  The Fairies (Die Feen)

(     Runs for cover!   0:)  )

When I read "an early Wagner work" I thought you might mention Holländer or Tannhäuser and I made ready to unleash the heavy artillery...but Die Feen? Relax, Cato....I won't go to war over that 

Sarge

[The new erato]

When I read "an early Wagner work" I thought you might mention Holländer or Tannhäuser and I made ready to unleash the heavy artillery...but Die Feen? Relax, Cato....I won't go to war over that 

Sarge

Apprentice works are allowed to be duds, for God's sake! How else to learn?

[karlhenning]

Regard Prok 2, I defer to the composer's opinion (he thought it was a dud).

Balderdash, and intellectually lazy balderdash at that.

[Bulldog]

I had a version on Hanssler, I forget the exact forces involved. More recently, I got Konstantin Lifschitz's piano version on Orfeo.

I don't wish to knock the work too hard, it contains some good bits as one would expect with Bach. But as a whole it feels like a bunch of disconnected parts which creates a rather dry academic impression.

Thanks for the response.  Those two versions of the Musical Offering are certainly worthy ones.

[zmic]

My early impression of Bach's Musical Offering is that it too could fall into this "dud of genius" category. I need to get to know it better, though.

Your candidates for "duds of genius"?

If I'd had to pick one work by Bach it would be the Goldberg Variations. There are some beautiful parts, but most of it I find just dry and boring. I never understood it's popularity, and I'd rather listen to *any* other work by Bach.

[Chaszz]

I had a version [of the Musical Offering] on Hanssler, I forget the exact forces involved. More recently, I got Konstantin Lifschitz's piano version on Orfeo.

I don't wish to knock the work too hard, it contains some good bits as one would expect with Bach. But as a whole it feels like a bunch of disconnected parts which creates a rather dry academic impression...

...Agree with this as well [re the Beethoven Violin Concerto]. Not a bad piece, but kind of uninspired. For small-scale dud LvB, the Serioso Quartet (Op. 95) is my choice. One of those experimental-sounding things that doesn't quite hang together.

For me these two snippets illustrate that beauty is in the ear of the beholder. I have spent many hours exploring the Musical Offering in whole and part, and find it one of Bach's most elevated and rewarding works, quite consistent in the overall  lyrical effect it makes. The ineffable harmonies suggested by the passing and crossing contrapuntal lines seem on a new plane of wisdom and serenity even for Bach. The center sections seem to me to be natural for strings, and I would not think a piano version the ideal way to hear it. 

And just the other day I was at a life drawing class where we listen to NYC classical music station WQXR-FM while drawing. The Beethoven Violin Concerto came on, and I thought to myself, well, WQXR plays a lot of hoary old warhorses, and here is one of the hoariest ones. I sighed and resigned myself to having to listen through it again. After several moments I was swept away for the hundreth time in the majesty of this wonderful piece, each movement inspired and beautiful....

And yet some people find two these works lacking...go figure. 

[Superhorn]

  As Toscanini said," No one is a genius 24 hours a day".
    Great composers can be forgiven for having written some hum-drum works if they have provided the world with genuine immortal masterpieces.

[karlhenning]

  As Toscanini said," No one is a genius 24 hours a day".
    Great composers can be forgiven for having written some hum-drum works if they have provided the world with genuine immortal masterpieces.

I like Billy Wilder's dictum, "You're as good as the best thing you've done."

[DavidW]

Of course, the major difference is that operatic recitatives are often well-written and have a highly musical purpose in the context of the opera itself.

Well when I watch an opera with subtitles I can tell that great music was written around silly soap operas.   And when I just listen on cd, I get nothing out of recitatives in a language that I don't understand, it doesn't add anything if you don't get it.  So they just don't really work for me in either situation.

[The new erato]

For me these two snippets illustrate that beauty is in the ear of the beholder. I have spent many hours exploring the Musical Offering in whole and part, and find it one of Bach's most elevated and rewarding works, quite consistent in the overall  lyrical effect it makes. The ineffable harmonies suggested by the passing and crossing contrapuntal lines seem on a new plane of wisdom and serenity even for Bach. The center sections seem to me to be natural for strings, and I would not think a piano version the ideal way to hear it. 

And just the other day I was at a life drawing class where we listen to NYC classical music station WQXR-FM while drawing. The Beethoven Violin Concerto came on, and I thought to myself, well, WQXR plays a lot of hoary old warhorses, and here is one of the hoariest ones. I sighed and resigned myself to having to listen through it again. After several moments I was swept away for the hundreth time in the majesty of this wonderful piece, each movement inspired and beautiful....

And yet some people find two these works lacking...go figure.

Count me in as well on both works. I count Beethovens violin concerto as the non plus ultra of violin concertoes. So it's not virtuosic, but what the h..l? Who needs a sweaty guy (or gal) in frot of the orchestra anyway?

[karlhenning]

Count me in as well on both works. I count Beethovens violin concerto as the non plus ultra of violin concertoes. So it's not virtuosic, but what the h..l?

That's not Sforzando's quarrel with the piece, I am sure. (Just saying.)

[Cato]

When I read "an early Wagner work" I thought you might mention Holländer or Tannhäuser and I made ready to unleash the heavy artillery...but Die Feen? Relax, Cato....I won't go to war over that 

Sarge

Glad to hear it!   0:)

And I must admit that a day or two ago, when I first went through this topic, the name Ferde Grofe went through my mind, and I was ready to enumerate various musical malefactions like the Hudson River Suite or the Hollywood Suite.

But then I stopped: the topic is "Duds of Genius "    and so I relented!   

[Sergeant Rock]

And I must admit that a day or two ago, when I first went through this topic, the name Ferde Grofe went through my mind... But then I stopped: the topic is "Duds of Genius "    and so I relented!   

Poor Ferde...the Rodney Dangerfield of composers.

Sarge

[Cato]

Poor Ferde...the Rodney Dangerfield of composers.

Sarge

Rodney    0:)   was a genius!

I still remember being in the car and hearing the middle of the  Mississippi Suite  - not knowing what it was or who had scribbled it down - and laughing my way through it.  It was a hot day in July, and I was at the post office: so vivid is the memory!

It did not take long for me to deduce who the scribbler had to be!   

[Bulldog]

If I'd had to pick one work by Bach it would be the Goldberg Variations. There are some beautiful parts, but most of it I find just dry and boring. I never understood it's popularity, and I'd rather listen to *any* other work by Bach.

My heart is sinking.