Duds of Genius

[snyprrr]

Hands down, Helikoptor Quartett.

[knight66]

I don't agree with that. The piece is not either for normal every day concert performance or for home listening, but it is an interesting experiment, certanly not a dud.

Mike

[Franco]

Shosty 4!

Shirley, you jest!

[jowcol]

Shirley, you jest!

Interesting-- I really like Prokofiev's 2nd and Shosty's 4th, but on both of them I like the individual parts, but they don't really cohere for me.

In the case of Prokofiev's second, I love both movements (the second is more work), but when I here his Third, it is much more unified.  (Strange, since the material was not originally written for a symphony).

Interesting topic-- I'll need to ponder this a bit more...

[Cato]

Beethoven-- Wellington's Victory it's just kind of dumb.

That was the first thing hitting my mind, when I saw the topic.

I very much disagree with the choice of the Prokofiev Second Symphony.  For me it is a home run/touchdown/slam dunk all the way!

The form comes from Beethoven's definitely non-dud Opus 111.

Hoping that Sarge keeps his machine-gun under control, I will mention an early Wagner work (I heard excerpts many moons ago) dedicated to dud-dom:  The Fairies (Die Feen) .

One reviewer said it had passages which presaged the future Wagner.

Which to some ears could be taken as a warning!   

(     Runs for cover!   0:)  )

[karlhenning]

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more with you about the Prokofiev 2nd symphony.
It may be a tough nut to crack for some, but I consider it to be a masterpiece of the highest rank, and one of Prokofiev's most brilliant and original works.

Ditto.

In a parallel universe in which we would only have one of the Prokofiev symphonies, I should have to choose the Second.  It would be a wrench, &c. &c., but my decision would be swift and final.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Wow, lots of love for the much-maligned and neglected Prokofiev 2nd Symphony! I'll have to reconsider my dismissal of this work.

I'm surprised to see only one unambiguous defense so far of the Musical Offering - I thought JSB was sacrosanct.

[greg]

Ditto.

In a parallel universe in which we would only have one of the Prokofiev symphonies, I should have to choose the Second.  It would be a wrench, &c. &c., but my decision would be swift and final.

I might agree with that (either that or the 5th)... (and the recording would be Ozawa)

[Superhorn]

  Of course Wellington's Victory is hardly one of Beethoven's greatest works.
    But it's harmless fun, and at least not boring. Basically, he wrote it for easy money.
Not everything Haydn and Mozart wrote is a sublime masterpiece. They wrote their share of potboilers. They often had to write pleasant music to divert aristocrats at dinner. No crime. It put food on their tables.

[Florestan]

Beethoven-- Wellington's Victory it's just kind of dumb.

People keep saying that, but I beg to differ.

First of all, it's masterly crafted. You can not only hear, but feel the cannons and the battle.

Secondly, imagine what Wellington's victory meant for those countries and peoples which were really opposed to Napoleon's usurpation of titles and pretensions of dictating the fate of the whole Europe: a heroic achievement, a giant relief, a  huge sign of hope and a truly good news. All this is expressed in the score.

Not among his greatest works, but certainly worth more than its reputation.

[Chaszz]

My early impression of Bach's Musical Offering is that it too could fall into this "dud of genius" category. I need to get to know it better, though.

I'll come back later with a few of my duds. But right now, I need to say that IMHO Bach's Musical Offering is one of his greatest works. Perhaps you need a better version. I would recommend the one by Mariner/Academy SMF.

[Bulldog]

I'll come back later with a few of my duds. But right now, I need to say that IMHO Bach's Musical Offering is one of his greatest works. Perhaps you need a better version. I would recommend the one by Mariner/Academy SMF.

Ouch!  I consider Marriner/Bach an evil combination.  It's likely the version that's turning Velimir off.

But seriously, it would be good to know what versions he has heard.

[Scarpia]

Ouch!  I consider Marriner/Bach an evil combination.  It's likely the version that's turning Velimir off.

But seriously, it would be good to know what versions he has heard.

Most recently I've heard Harnoncourt CMW, which instilled respect but not love of the music.

[Guido]

Shostakovich 4 is just staggering, one of his greatest symphonies without question.

[karlhenning]

Shostakovich 4 is just staggering, one of his greatest symphonies without question.

QFT

[(poco) Sforzando]

I don't have any trouble with serialism, and I don't see why the current date (2010) is relevant to this. Rather, I don't like the serial pieces Schoenberg wrote nearly as much as I like the late Romantic and free atonal pieces that he wrote earlier. I'll take Pierrot Lunaire, Verklärte Nacht, and the Five Orchestral Pieces over the Piano Concerto, Violin Concerto, or Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene any day. He was a great composer, but the serial period does not reflect him at his best. End of story.

Actually I will agree with you. I find the more neo-classical pieces like the Septet, Piano Suite, and the Wind Quintet especially to be rhythmically more constrained and less free than the extraordinary works written between op. 11-22. Serialism did not IMO inhibit Berg or Webern, but for Schoenberg himself, the inventor of the system, I think it proved a dead end.

My dud of genius? The Beethoven Violin Concerto, which I find his least satisfactory large-scale orchestral work.

[Scarpia]

My dud of genius? The Beethoven Violin Concerto, which I find his least satisfactory large-scale orchestral work.

One man's dud is another man's gold.

[Chaszz]

As to duds, it strikes me the more I think about it that the fault may be mine rather than the composer's when I can't appreciate a work by a master. And it also strikes me now that I think about it how many composers I haven't appreciated properly, because my listening is overall haphazard and unplanned; I have a lot of things going on in my life, am an artist and don't always specialize in listening as I think a number of members here do. The list of great composers I am relatively unfamiliar with stretches a lot longer than the ones I am, excepting the fact that the ones I am familiar with are more or less on the higher end of posterity's reckoning. 

Anyway, for duds, some of Bach's cantata solo and duet vocal arias are dull. They often seem formulaic. I read recently on a Bach site that he had music pupils/assistants write some of them. I had not read that before. Does anyone know the truth of that?

If he wrote them himself, of course the sheer volume of work he took on in writing a cantata every week or so for a few years would make it almost impossible to be inspired for every aria, even for a composer as great as this.

[DavidW]

Anyway, for duds, some of Bach's cantata solo and duet vocal arias are dull. They often seem formulaic.

I'll disagree with this, they are often filled with charming counterpoint between the instruments in the background, making light of the singing but elevating the whole to excellent chamber music.  I think they are the heart of Bach's cantatas, and I usually find that they move me more than a perfunctory chorus at the end.  Not everyone is going to be some deep, moving aria like the one in bwv 82 (this seems to be threatening to replace the Archduke Trio for my favorite work) but overall they are still my favorite part of a Bach cantata.

And my least favorite part of any vocal work (especially operas)?  Recitative.  Screw the text, the meaning, the story, the plot etc, let's sing!

[eyeresist]

Regard Prok 2, I defer to the composer's opinion (he thought it was a dud).

I find Mahler edging into this category. There's so much good stuff in his symphonies, but it's like a turkey draped in cheese and bacon, and stuffed with another turkey, which is in turn stuffed with quail's eggs - it's just too much!

Mozart and Haydn were mentioned earlier. I have found myself up against the conventional wisdom that EVERYTHING by Mozart is a top work of genius. It puts you in the ridiculous position of having to equate the Requiem with his juvenilia. Only a fanatic could do that with a straight face.