Did Mahler rip off Mendelssohn in the opening of his Fifth Symphony?

[Octo_Russ]

Here's a question that i've always wanted to ask.

And that's, did Mahler steal the opening fanfare of his Fifth Symphony from Mendelssohn?, listen to Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, Fifth Book Op62/3, my own opinion is that it's just too much of a coincidence to be independently composed, besides, Mahler was a little thief, but a good one! 

So what do you think?, is this a well known notion?, i can't believe i'm the only one who's noticed it, but i've never seen any discussion about it either.

What's your verdict?.

[some guy]

Of course it's very close, for a measure or two. But isn't this a bit like asking if Bernstein's "There's a Place for Us" is a rip-off of Strauss's Burleske? Or, even closer, if Ives' Emerson movement from his second piano sonata is a rip-off of the intermezzo of Brahms' piano sonata number three?

In both cases, there's another piece behind the pair mentioned. I would think it more likely that Mahler and Mendelssohn are both going back to the same piece, the same piece Ives and Brahms are referencing, though it is intriguing that they both go across and then up where their common source goes down. That is indeed fascinating, and I thank you for pointing that out!

[Marc]

In an old Dutch music encyclopedia (C. Höweler, XYZ der Muziek) the author is amazed about the similarity between the beginnings of Mahler's heavy Trauermarsch and Mendelssohn's jolly Hochzeitsmarsch (A Midsummer Night's Dream).

We know that the motive of Mahler's intro to his Fifth is taken from his own Fourth. In the first movement of that one, one hears exactly the same trumpet triplets that quickly fade away, like it's already foreshadowing its successor. I haven't got the score, so I can't give you the bars.

The chosen triplets are of course also tributary to Beethoven's Fifth.

If atmosphere is also a factor, then this Lied ohne Worte could indeed have been of influence, too. These compositions were rather well-known in the 19th century, and I guess that Mahler was well aware of many piano works, because he was a good and enthousiastic pianist himself.

[(poco) Sforzando]

The use of repeated-note triplets is probably so common to fanfares that calling any of these figurations "direct quotation" is stretching things IMO.

I do, however, hear a direct quotation from the finale of the Brahms 1st in the opening of the Mahler 3rd. (And not the part where the Brahms supposedly resembles the finale of Beethoven's 9th.) I also hear a quotation from the Meistersinger Overture in the finale of the Mahler 7th.

[MishaK]

Note that Mahler quotes himself. The opening trumpet call already appears in th 4th symphony!

[techniquest]

You could also say that the last two notes of Mahler's 1st are the same as the opening two notes of the second movement of Beethoven's 9th...

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Note that Mahler quotes himself. The opening trumpet call already appears in th 4th symphony!

That same trumpet call also appears way back in the middle of the slow mvt. of Haydn's Military Symphony (#100). This suggests to me that Sfz's comment about fanfares is correct.

I do, however, hear a direct quotation from the finale of the Brahms 1st in the opening of the Mahler 3rd.

I also hear the opening of the Mahler 1st in the middle of the finale of the Brahms 2nd (just before the recap begins).

[Scarpia]

Here's a question that i've always wanted to ask.

And that's, did Mahler steal the opening fanfare of his Fifth Symphony from Mendelssohn?, listen to Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, Fifth Book Op62/3, my own opinion is that it's just too much of a coincidence to be independently composed, besides, Mahler was a little thief, but a good one! 

So what do you think?, is this a well known notion?, i can't believe i'm the only one who's noticed it, but i've never seen any discussion about it either.

What's your verdict?.

I did finally managed dig out a recording of the Mendelssohn, and it is not the same!  True, they both start out with the eighth note triplet/quarter note rhythm on a repeated note, but Mendelssohn remains on the same note, Mahler has the phrase move up a minor third (if I remember right) at the end of the first phrase.  The same rhythmic motif seems to be very common in stylized symphonic funeral marches, it appears a lot in the accompanying figures in the Funeral March of Beethoven's 3rd symphony, as well as the Mendelssohn.  It is different than the three shorts and a long that is the motto of Beethoven's 5th (which starts on an up-beat) but similar to the variation used by Beethoven in the Scherzo of the 5th symphony (the first dramatic entrance of the French horn).   

Anyway, it is fascinating that, as Marc mentioned, the trumpet theme is lifted from Mahler's own 4th symphony.  I get the impression that happens a lot in Mahler symphonies.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I also hear the opening of the Mahler 1st in the middle of the finale of the Brahms 2nd (just before the recap begins).

Then Brahms was a rare genius indeed to have quoted in 1877 what Mahler composed in 1884.

[oabmarcus]

You can't accuse of someone of "rip off" if he only took a few bars. The similarity you suggests last only a matter of seconds. So, i think "inspired" would be a more appropriate term.

[Octo_Russ]

Hmmm nice thoughts!, one more thing that i notice, is that the endings are both phenomenally similar too!, a quieter softer variation of the opening fanfare, both at the end of the Mendelssohn piece, and at the end of the first movement, coincidence??.

[oabmarcus]

Hmmm nice thoughts!, one more thing that i notice, is that the endings are both phenomenally similar too!, a quieter softer variation of the opening fanfare, both at the end of the Mendelssohn piece, and at the end of the first movement, coincidence??.

coincidence, i think so. The more classical music you listen to, the more of these "connections" you will find. But, generally (excerpt for a few composers), "great" composers don't rip off motifs. and if they do, they'll tell you.

[Scarpia]

Hmmm nice thoughts!, one more thing that i notice, is that the endings are both phenomenally similar too!, a quieter softer variation of the opening fanfare, both at the end of the Mendelssohn piece, and at the end of the first movement, coincidence??.

Exactly, the fact that Mahler 5 1st movement ends with the same theme it began with is pure coincidence.  Likewise, the fact that Mendelssohn Op 62 no 3 ends with the same theme it begins with is also pure coincidence.   The fact that this coincidence happens in both pieces is also a coincidence.  In both cases, by the time the composer reached the end of the piece, he had forgotten how it started and composed the same theme again by coincidence.   But both composers have names that start with M.  Some people think it is a coincidence, but don't fool yourself.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Exactly, the fact that Mahler 5 1st movement ends with the same theme it began with is pure coincidence.  Likewise, the fact that Mendelssohn Op 62 no 3 ends with the same theme it begins with is also pure coincidence.   The fact that this coincidence happens in both pieces is also a coincidence.  In both cases, by the time the composer reached the end of the piece, he had forgotten how it started and composed the same theme again by coincidence.   But both composers have names that start with M.  Some people think it is a coincidence, but don't fool yourself.

As Shakespeare's Fluellen, the Welsh captain in Henry V, insists:

I think it is in Macedon where Alexander is porn. I tell you, captain, if you look in the maps of the 'orld, I warrant you sall find, in the comparisons between Macedon and Monmouth, that the situations, look you, is both alike. There is a river in Macedon; and there is also moreover a river at Monmouth: it is called Wye at Monmouth; but it is out of my prains what is the name of the other river; but 'tis all one, 'tis alike as my fingers is to my fingers, and there is salmons in both.

[Cato]

I did finally managed dig out a recording of the Mendelssohn, and it is not the same!  True, they both start out with the eighth note triplet/quarter note rhythm on a repeated note, but Mendelssohn remains on the same note, Mahler has the phrase move up a minor third (if I remember right) at the end of the first phrase.  The same rhythmic motif seems to be very common in stylized symphonic funeral marches, it appears a lot in the accompanying figures in the Funeral March of Beethoven's 3rd symphony, as well as the Mendelssohn.  It is different than the three shorts and a long that is the motto of Beethoven's 5th (which starts on an up-beat) but similar to the variation used by Beethoven in the Scherzo of the 5th symphony (the first dramatic entrance of the French horn).   

Anyway, it is fascinating that, as Marc mentioned, the trumpet theme is lifted from Mahler's own 4th symphony.  I get the impression that happens a lot in Mahler symphonies.

Ultimately one would need proof that Mahler had heard the Mendelssohn work, and then that he wanted to refer to it.

Given the nature of trumpet calls, coincidence seems more likely.  If Mahler did know the Mendelssohn, and never stated that his theme was an homage to Mendelssohn, I suppose one might claim that it is a subconscious association.  But how could you prove it, unless they were identical?  As noted above, that is not the case.

And in all of my readings of critics and biographers of Mahler, this association I do not recall being mentioned anywhere.

[oabmarcus]

Maybe it was a subtle attempt by Mahler to pay homage to Jewish composers before him.

[listener]

Thanks sforzando for the quotation:
"There is a river in Macedon; and there is also moreover a river at Monmouth:"
It's cited in one of Tovey's books*, and he points out that there's a "b" in "both".
   ...'"The resemblance is equivalent to the scriptural warrant of the minister who, wishing to inveigh against a prevalent frivolity in head-gear, preached upon the text, "Top-knot, come down! which he had found in Matt.xxiv.17 ('Let him which is upon the housetop not come down').
     The Top-Knot school of exigesis still flourishes in music."
*Essays in Musical Analysis vol. 1  p.141

[Guido]

Of course it's very close, for a measure or two. But isn't this a bit like asking if Bernstein's "There's a Place for Us" is a rip-off of Strauss's Burleske? Or, even closer, if Ives' Emerson movement from his second piano sonata is a rip-off of the intermezzo of Brahms' piano sonata number three?

In both cases, there's another piece behind the pair mentioned. I would think it more likely that Mahler and Mendelssohn are both going back to the same piece, the same piece Ives and Brahms are referencing, though it is intriguing that they both go across and then up where their common source goes down. That is indeed fascinating, and I thank you for pointing that out!

What is the other piece?! EDIT: OH Beethoven five of course!

[greg]

da-da-da-DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
da-da-da-DAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
da-da-da-DEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

it's just common

[some guy]

I hear the quotation (if it is one) more clearly in the slow movement of Beethoven's Piano Concerto 5.

Exactly! Only the tune in the Beethoven would be the original, with the Strauss and the Bernstein being "quotes." Subject to the kind of scholarly work Cato mentions.

Did Smetana rip-off Mendelssohn's Octet in his Richard III? Sure sounds like it. Did Franck borrow the opening of Liszt's Les Preludes for his Symphony? It's soooo close! If only everyone would do as Schnittke did in The Inspector's Tale. Tease you with a rhythmic similarity in the strings and electric guitar Is it...? Could it be...? Hmmm.... And then just has the whole orchestra come in with an obvious direct quote. (Not like that sneaky Dvorak in the Noonday Witch. Oh, wait. That's almost exactly like the Schnittke.) Or Xenakis in Orient-Occident: thump thump thump thuuuud.