Our British ---Allies??

[beclemund]

You mean the teacher's behavior is not symptomatic of current UK policies and ideologies? That's a bit naive, don't you think?

Granted, it appeared that your first message was in respose to the initial thread post, however... I do not believe a single instance of a failure is a symptom of anything. A bad decision by a single department in the whole of a nation, certainly, but it does not indict the entire system.

So, how is multiculturalism going to solve this 'holocaust' issue?

Is that the goal of multicultural education? And is this fake forwarded email story a "'holocaust' issue?"

[beclemund]

Who said "it was before the age of ten"?  Not me. It WAS between the ages of 12-15, when such maneuvers could be "appreciated". If you've never participated in that activity, it is your loss. Part of "growing up".
And I know that your avatar is not a picture of you. But you probably are as BORING and UPTIGHT an individual as that picture indicates.

I can only agree that I am significantly more boring and uptight than Bruckner.

[Josquin des Prez]

Is that the goal of multicultural education?

As long as the 'multicultural' element supersedes the 'education' part, then i'll have to say yes. If the idea of multiculturalism is to avoid offending people of all nations and creeds (as it apparently it purposes to do), how do you prevent a certain group of people for being quite crossed at something that is part of your curriculum?

It's nice to know that the UK is still not completely lost (for now), but the issue is still open, isn't it?

[knight66]

Thanks for your condescending remarks JDP....ill informed clearly, but you are entitled to your partial opinion. The orig news item was rubbish, but you took it as true, that says more about your attitudes than it does about the British ones.

Mike

[Choo Choo]

Not only is the original story untrue, since 2001 in the UK there has been something called Holocaust Memorial Day (27th January), one of whose purposes is to educate children on the subject.

There has been some discussion as to whether it should be broadened to include other genocides, including those suffered by Muslim communities.

[Josquin des Prez]

Thanks for your condescending remarks JDP....ill informed clearly, but you are entitled to your partial opinion. The orig news item was rubbish, but you took it as true, that says more about your attitudes than it does about the British ones.

Mike

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6517359.stm

Not true? Is this the bbc site or not?

[Josquin des Prez]

Individual actions of some schools do not amount to a decision to change the official curriculum.

Q

Individual actions of some schools may represent current political and ideological trends among the administration as well as the general population, which is what i said in the first place.

[Maciek]

Interesting (I mean the whole mix up, with the hoax staying alive for such a long time)...

In Poland there's a law against Holocaust denial - you pay a fine or go to jail or something of that sort. I wonder if it's the same in other countries?

But what really strikes me is that someone earlier on suggested that all Muslims deny the Holocaust which is clearly absurd.

[MishaK]

As long as the 'multicultural' element supersedes the 'education' part, then i'll have to say yes. If the idea of multiculturalism is to avoid offending people of all nations and creeds (as it apparently it purposes to do), how do you prevent a certain group of people for being quite crossed at something that is part of your curriculum?

That's unfortunately a misconception. Multiculturalism requires peaceful coexistence and equal respect for others. The latter is impossible if one group denies rights to another or prefers an inaccurate version of history that mythologizes their group. Basic human rights and respect has to be enforced even if it "offends" certain cultural norms. It is just that many people, particularly in education, shy away from the confrontation that is necessary to enforce this. But multiculturalism cannot mean that all versions of history, however warped and mutually exclusive, must be tolerated.  Anytime you move to another country, you are a changed person. Any person who immigrates to another country must understand to a certain degree that things will work differently and needs to bring a long a certain level of adaptability. I say this having never lived in the native country of my parents, but always as an immigrant in wherever I was at any given time.

[knight66]

JPD, Try reading the article and stop putting your own spin on it.....here is a quote from the item you site....

"A Department of Education and Skills spokesman said there was scope for schools to make their own decision on what to teach within the national curriculum

But he added: "Teaching of the Holocaust is already compulsory in schools at Key Stage 3 [age 11-14].

"It will remain so in the new Key Stage 3 curriculum from September 2008.

"As Alan Johnson made clear in January there are certain subjects which will be protected in the new curriculum and that includes the Holocaust." "

By the way, it seems that far from trying to hide the facts, what is causing problems is the anti-semetic remarks of some Moslem pupils when the subject it taught. However, these issues need to be faced down and with further support it seems the subject is to continue to be taught.

Knight

[Lethevich]

I think the issue is with the notion of multiculturalism in the first place. I can't believe they actually did this. Britain is doomed...

So... the Nazis were right, basically?

[Hector]

Individual actions of some schools may represent current political and ideological trends among the administration as well as the general population, which is what i said in the first place.

You believe what you want to believe in the face of the facts which you seem incapable of sifting from the detritus you have before you.

It is the perception by some schools and teachers that teaching about the 'Holocaust' will offend Muslims.

It will, indeed, offend some, anti-Zionist, extremist Muslims, of that there is no doubt whatsoever, just as teaching Evolution will offend some extremist 'christian fundamentalists.'

It is not the teaching of the Holocaust that worries some teachers but the emphasis placed on Nazis and the 2nd World War as a major part of the History curriculum in the UK, of which I offer no comment.

[Philoctetes]

It is not the teaching of the Holocaust that worries some teachers but the emphasis placed on Nazis and the 2nd World War as a major part of the History curriculum in the UK, of which I offer no comment.

I like how Family Guy handled this particular issue.

We were all on vacation.
Poland invited us over. Just ask them.
0:)

[S709]

This week the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it "offended" the Muslim population which claims it never occurred.

So you actually believed that nonsense? "The entire Muslim population of the UK claims the Holocaust never occurred" ?

He's got the brain of an infant, and the judgement of an imbecile.

Seems you're the one with the judgement of an imbecile, if you actually believed "the Muslim population claims the Holocaust did not occur". All you have done is taken the words of some extremists (probably because of something about Ahmadinejad you saw on Fox News), and used idiotic prejudice to apply it to a whole group of people. Well done!

[S709]

In Poland there's a law against Holocaust denial - you pay a fine or go to jail or something of that sort. I wonder if it's the same in other countries?

Yes, in Austria and Germany as well.

[Philoctetes]

Yes, in Austria and Germany as well.

Which is utterly mornoic.
France did something similar as well.

[knight66]

Noticeable that after the poorly researched starting gun to this topic, the best Iago has been coming up with are smutty veiled references to masterbation.

What did 'allies' mean in this context? Allies to Israel, the Diaspora or the US? If you meant the US and take any satisfaction in the notion of us giving into 'fear', then it will be a howlingly lonely position that the US will be left in. Possibly not the time to alienate any reasonably friendly people.

I am all for justified criticism of the UK, but get the facts right. There are enough of those to be going on with, withought recourse to knee jerk reaction to clearly inaccurate stories. For instance, you might ask us if a story had substance. Any official downgrading of such teaching as the Holocaust would cause a considerable outcry here. There are still many alive who experienced the truth of it. There are powerful Jewish lobbies and plenty of younger people, such as myself, who want us to learn something from history and would take issue with any official downgrading of the teaching of the subject.


"To forget history, is to endlessly repeat it."


Mike

[knight66]

Which is utterly mornoic.
France did something similar as well.

I can understand why it seems idiotic. But in each of those countries there are vested interests; those complicit in the commissioning of the crimes or in carrying them out and to give oxygen to their desire to deny the issue is seen as inappropriate in the extreme. These governments do not want there to be anywhere for such people to hide behind arguments that are allowed credence. It does strike at that holy cow of free speech and it might be better to meet the arguments head on with the counter arguments. Legislating in this way does not change minds, but it does indicate where the elected governments stand, and by implication the voters who put them there.

Mike

[Choo Choo]

As this thread demonstrates, you do not need to be a Holocaust denier to prefer myth to fact.

[Philoctetes]

I can understand why it seems idiotic. But in each of those countries there are vested interests; those complicit in the commissioning of the crimes or in carrying them out and to give oxygen to their desire to deny the issue is seen as inappropriate in the extreme. These governments do not want there to be anywhere for such people to hide behind arguments that are allowed credence. It does strike at that holy cow of free speech and it might be better to meet the arguments head on with the counter arguments. Legislating in this way does not change minds, but it does indicate where the elected governments stand, and by implication the voters who put them there.

Mike

No, I understand perfectly why they do, but a restriction of Free Speech is always moronic in my opinion.

Here's a quote from Deborah Lipstadt that I think suits this topic quite swell.

"For Euopean politicians bringing in a ban on genocide denial is like apple pie. It's what I call a freebie. They're doing it to make themselves feel good. I mean, who could possibly be against standing up to nasty genocid deniers? Only when you get to the heart of it, this 'freebie', this populist move, could have a dire impact on academic debate. Even on truth itself."

Now I do admit that she started to lose it at the end, but her point still stands, in general.