Dmitri's Dacha

[relm1]

I just had some sort of epiphany with the Eighth Symphony. It was always one of my favorites but it suddenly came together last night in a way it hadn't before. It happened in the finale when I realized how well the thematic returns from the first movement tied everything together and how perfectly apt was the transformation their intervention wrought on the finale's material. But the effect I think is more due to having a better understanding and mental image of the sprawling first movement. I think the Eighth is my favorite now. Strange how after hearing something so many times, something indefinable finally clicks.

Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?

[Karl Henning]

Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?

It has been too long! 

[Mirror Image]

I just had some sort of epiphany with the Eighth Symphony. It was always one of my favorites but it suddenly came together last night in a way it hadn't before. It happened in the finale when I realized how well the thematic returns from the first movement tied everything together and how perfectly apt was the transformation their intervention wrought on the finale's material. But the effect I think is more due to having a better understanding and mental image of the sprawling first movement. I think the Eighth is my favorite now. Strange how after hearing something so many times, something indefinable finally clicks.

Very good to hear. The 8th has been a long-time favorite of mine. How many performances do you think you own of it? Supposedly, or, at least, according to the reviewer on All Music Guide, a recent version I bought with Vladimir Fedoseyev is supposed to be the most brutal version on record. Can't wait to hear it.

The recording in question:

[Mahlerian]

Maybe its been too long since I've heard this work, but can you remind me what is the moment in the last movement where the thematic material from the first movement returns?

He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.

[Pat B]

Symphony 5 (Svetlanov 1970?, released on Warner)

[asin]B001DETD9G[/asin]

I have only listened once but wanted to go ahead and post some thoughts.

It's characteristically energetic, with contrasts emphasized, but what I really noticed was that this is a musical Fifth, not an imposingly political one. The entrance of the piano midway through the first movement, joined by what sounds like slap-bass, sounds jazzy. The scherzo sounds alternately Viennese and Spanish more than Soviet.

Apropos the discussion from July, the coda is taken moderately, somewhat contrasting the hectic start of the finale, but the ritardando in the last measures is milder than usual. The effect of the coda is of ambiguity, where many performances seem to push either a literal-rejoicing or forced-rejoicing narrative. I think I prefer it this way.

Sound is tubby but not bad by 1970s Soviet standards. Provenance is a bit of a mystery: unlike most Russian recordings from that era, it is apparently not a Melodiya or State Radio recording. Publishing and copyright credits are to "Svetlanova." Did Svetlanov have his own recording crew? The insert indicates it's live, but if so, the audience is much quieter than for the coupled 1st.

It's obviously not for those who want the angst played up, but for me, this could become a favorite. At the very least it has helped me understand the piece better.

[BasilValentine]

He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.

Yes, that is precisely what I had in mind. Stated more simply, the loud part!

The inversion relationship is central to the overall design. The counterpoint and fugal writing in the finale, especially that for winds, is wonderful.

[Mahlerian]

Yes, that is precisely what I had in mind. Stated more simply, the loud part!

The inversion relationship is central to the overall design. The counterpoint and fugal writing in the finale, especially that for winds, is wonderful.

You might be pleasantly surprised to find I agree.  That finale is a fascinating movement.

[vandermolen]

Very good to hear. The 8th has been a long-time favorite of mine. How many performances do you think you own of it? Supposedly, or, at least, according to the reviewer on All Music Guide, a recent version I bought with Vladimir Fedoseyev is supposed to be the most brutal version on record. Can't wait to hear it.

The recording in question:

That's a great version John. My favourite is Previn's EMI recording with the LSO.

[relm1]

He's probably referring to the return of the violent climax of the first movement (the explosion preceding the long English horn solo), which brings with it a number of motifs from the first movement, and also the way the finale is based on an inversion of the opening major second motif.

Ahh, ok.  I am listening to it now with Solit/CSO.

[Heck148]

Ahh, ok.  I am listening to it now with Solit/CSO.

That's a great recording. I heard them play it live in Boston Symphony Hall - amazing, even better than the recording, IIRC...
The audience went totally nuts...

[Mirror Image]

That's a great version John. My favourite is Previn's EMI recording with the LSO.

Good to hear, Jeffrey. I was really blown away by Rozhdestvensky's, but Haitink has been a long-standing favorite.

[Karl Henning]

Aye, Haitink's was the first Op.65 I heard, and I still give it that sentimental edge.

[Mirror Image]

Aye, Haitink's was the first Op.65 I heard, and I still give it that sentimental edge.

Yes, indeed, but when revisiting Haitink's (not too long ago), it still holds up rather well IMHO. Quite intense.

[Mirror Image]

Symphony 5 (Svetlanov 1970?, released on Warner)

[asin]B001DETD9G[/asin]

I have only listened once but wanted to go ahead and post some thoughts.

It's characteristically energetic, with contrasts emphasized, but what I really noticed was that this is a musical Fifth, not an imposingly political one. The entrance of the piano midway through the first movement, joined by what sounds like slap-bass, sounds jazzy. The scherzo sounds alternately Viennese and Spanish more than Soviet.

Apropos the discussion from July, the coda is taken moderately, somewhat contrasting the hectic start of the finale, but the ritardando in the last measures is milder than usual. The effect of the coda is of ambiguity, where many performances seem to push either a literal-rejoicing or forced-rejoicing narrative. I think I prefer it this way.

Sound is tubby but not bad by 1970s Soviet standards. Provenance is a bit of a mystery: unlike most Russian recordings from that era, it is apparently not a Melodiya or State Radio recording. Publishing and copyright credits are to "Svetlanova." Did Svetlanov have his own recording crew? The insert indicates it's live, but if so, the audience is much quieter than for the coupled 1st.

It's obviously not for those who want the angst played up, but for me, this could become a favorite. At the very least it has helped me understand the piece better.

The best I can remember, I enjoyed this performance as well. I should revisit it although Bernstein's Live in Japan performance still haunts me.

[vandermolen]

If you like Shostakovich you'll almost certainly like this (2003):
Mikhel Kerem: Symphony 3 'For the Victims of Communism':
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kerem-Symphony-Murdvee-Toccata-Classics/dp/B00C30Z9TC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1481748703&sr=1-1&keywords=Kerem

[Karl Henning]

Shostakovich's own voice is most clearly audible in his fifteen string quartets.

On one hand, I want in part to endorse the sentiment behind this.  On the other, we can all agree that there is presumption in this statement, right?

So whereas the symphonies can be bombastic or overblown or afflicted with moments of bad faith, the quartets are amazingly pure and consistently appealing.

All right, it's an opinion, and everyone's entitled.  But:  "afflicted with moments of bad faith"?

"afflicted with moments of bad faith"?

I don't suppose I can answer this, until those moments are identified for us.

Oh? The author doesn't bother to?

I see.

As to "bombastic or overblown" . . . a large orchestra is a bigger voice than a string quartet.  There is nothing wrong with exulting in the intimacy of a string quartet (and, of course, there are four dozen passages of musical intimacy within the symphonies, as we all know), and nobody is obliged to like all the symphonies, but if we choose less dismissive adjectives to describe them, maybe even the moments of bombast are, gasp, artful.  Let's say we prefer the sonnets as Shakespeare's own voice, and say how much we prefer them to Macbeth, because it's so . . . stagey.

Nothing wrong with admiring the quartets, to be clear.  The snobbish "they're so much better than those beastly symphonies" is, by now, rather more tiresome and tin-eared than anything one might object to in the symphonies.


Call it my opinion.

[BasilValentine]

Although I think some of the symphonies are truly great (4, 6, 8, 10, 15 at least), for me too the quartets are the center of Shostakovich's work. As for "bad faith" I would just take out the word "faith" and point to the whole 12th Symphony and the first movement of the 7th.

[Karl Henning]

Although I think some of the symphonies are truly great (4, 6, 8, 10, 15 at least), for me too the quartets are the center of Shostakovich's work. As for "bad faith" I would just take out the word "faith" and point to the whole 12th Symphony and the first movement of the 7th.

Yah, but we disagree about the first movement of the Leningrad, certainly.  So it just becomes "lots of people don't like [this] much."

And what if the Op.87 are the real center of his work?

I think the Fourth Symphony is the center, and even the string quartets radiate forth from it   

[Karl Henning]

She suggests that Lady Macbeth and the 4th Symphony were the last freely composed large works, since for as long as Stalin was alive, and even after, Shostakovich was now under the scrutiny of the state.  But his chamber music could proceed virtually unseen.

A steady series of 15 string quartets, well regarded among fellow musicians, and which receive readings immediately, and public performances soon after, their completion . . . I don't think "virtually unseen" at all apt.

[kishnevi]

IIRC Laurel Fay laid down a similar proposition in her biography of DSCH. In essence, the symphonies were written with the knowledge that they would need official approval and be publicly judged,  and at a certain stage DSCH simply refrained from writing them ( the hiatus between Nine and Ten, which happened to be the final years of Stalin's rule).  Other works, the VC1 most famously, he simply wrote and then kept out of public circulation.  The quartets, however, were more often expressions of personal emotion and written without direct regard for official reaction.