Dmitri's Dacha

[Karl Henning]

Karl, I assume you've seen the score to Opus 43?  Massive orchestra even by, say, Mahler's standards!

Aye, I wanted to pore over that score.  There's one angle to the size of an orchestra of which I have been mindful since the time I studied Le sacre.  As you know, there are eight horns in the orchestra for Le sacre; and methought, What is there in the piece, which means he needs eight horns, and not four horns plus other brasswinds?  Among other things . . . you know (of course!) the famous passage opening the Danse des adolescentes where there are the irregular accents in the pulsing string chords, and the horns reinforce those accents — and lo! those are eight-note chords.

I had read the story of Shostakovich playing the Fourth Symphony for Otto Klemperer, who was in Leningrad on one of his tours, and who pledged a South American performance of the piece.  The composer firmly denied Klemperer's request to reduce the number of flutes needed (6).

So, knowing what an enormous orchestra he calls for, I wanted to dig into that score and learn just why Shostakovich needed so many of each of the instruments.

That is what I keep in mind, too, in White Nights . . . I have all these instruments, I had better give them employment . . . .

[amw]

What Shostakovich enthuses you these days?

I've been listening to the later string quartets a good deal, particularly 9, 12 and 13; as well as the two piano sonatas, the Preludes Op. 34 and the Aphorisms.

On repeated listening to (and playing some of) the 24 Preludes and Fugues I think I started wishing for more variety—almost all of the fugues are structured in exactly the same way (Nos. 4, 12 and 24 being the main exceptions) and some of them even having extremely similar subjects (that 1-5-6-5 thing from No. 1 characterises a lot of them...), etc. There are some gems, I quite like the G# minor prelude & fugue for instance, but after a while I lost interest in listening to the majority of the individual pieces.

[Madiel]

Eh? Sorry, I don't understand how you 'structure a fugue' other than by repeating the fugue subject a lot.

[aukhawk]

If you're listening at home it's no crime just to cherry-pick the bits you like -
I have a playlist consisting of:
Prelude 1
Fugue 4
Fugue 6
Prelude 8
Fugue 8
Prelude 12
Fugue 5
Prelude 14
Fugue 14
Prelude 15
Fugue 16
Fugue 24

and Jenny Lin my preferred recording.

The Nikolayeva/Hyperion set was, incidentally, the 1st CD I ever bought (having already assembled a large LP collection) - the combination (that recording, and the CD format) radically changed my listening (and buying) habits, inclining me more towards solo and small-scale ensembles, and away from big orchestral music.

[Madiel]

If you're listening at home it's no crime just to cherry-pick the bits you like -
I have a playlist consisting of:
Prelude 1
Fugue 4
Fugue 6
Prelude 8
Fugue 8
Prelude 12
Fugue 5
Prelude 14
Fugue 14
Prelude 15
Fugue 16
Fugue 24

and Jenny Lin my preferred recording.

It might not be a crime, but off the top of my head you've lost the connection between a hell of a lot of interlinked pieces. Most obviously between Prelude 12 and Fugue 12, and between Prelude 24 and Fugue 24, but there are a myriad other instances of a figuration in one piece turning into a major component of another.

[aukhawk]

I'm sure you're right, but I don't hear the structure in music - for me, listening to music is a stream-of-consciousness thing, I'm just like a tape head with the music running past.

For example, my non-inclusion of Fugue 12 cannot impact at all, my enjoyment of Prelude 12.

[Karl Henning]

It might not be a crime, but off the top of my head you've lost the connection between a hell of a lot of interlinked pieces. Most obviously between Prelude 12 and Fugue 12, and between Prelude 24 and Fugue 24, but there are a myriad other instances of a figuration in one piece turning into a major component of another.

That's a big part of why I get more and more out of the entirety, with increased familiarity.

Separately, I know Ray will be pleased that I am at last spending more time with Золотой век, The Golden Age, Op.22.  Wonderful to hear a number of "pre-resonances" with the (not much) later Fourth Symphony.

[Karl Henning]

I've been listening to the later string quartets a good deal, particularly 9, 12 and 13; as well as the two piano sonatas, the Preludes Op. 34 and the Aphorisms.

The quartets are wonderfully rich;  I've as yet just given cursory listens to the sonatas and the Op.34 (meaning them no slight).

[Brahmsian]

Separately, I know Ray will be pleased that I am at last spending more time with Золотой век, The Golden Age, Op.22.  Wonderful to hear a number of "pre-resonances" with the (not much) later Fourth Symphony.

Ahem, Karl.....much more than pleased!! 

*pounds the table!*  It had to be done. 

[snyprrr]

I've been gaining quite an appreciation for how Dmitri must have been affected by what he saw and heard of the horrors of war, and I wonder of the fear of Stalin- it's all of course obvious-

Question-

Why would Stalin have liked Op.47? Sure, I love it, you love it, but- it's actu... I dunno... I picture Stalin turning around like Joe Pesci, "Whaa?... you think I'm sad or somethin? You think I need consolin or somethin? Whack this guy" Did Stalin think the doom-y opening theme was his chiselled features in sound? I'd be like, "Why you tryin to scare the bambino wit dis boom boom opening?"

I do get a vicarious thrill knowing Shosty was personally threatened by the Big Man of Horror Himself. Surely Shostakovich is the Last Great Romantic Composer- A Free Composer in Chains? Who ISN'T commenting on his music, that writes still in a 'normal' vernacular?

That Op.47 is a Personal Response to a Single Man is just so emotional to me- it is "Music to Soothe the Savage Beast" isn't it? It sounds exactly like it does to put "something" to sleep. Every single note is perfect, and perfectly in place. It is chilling how the two slower movements must be patronizing Stalin's ego, and what he must have thought upon hearing.

Was Zhandov a musician?

[kishnevi]

I believe it's a matter of record that Stalin thought DSCH was an excellent composer of film scores.  At the very least,  he composed scores for what are apparently two of the best known cult movies about Stalin:  The Year 1919 and The Fall of Berlin (or at least two movies Stalin liked a lot, since they were about Stalin.)

Stalin's opinion of DSCH's symphonic output is murkier.  Presumably he liked the Fifth enough to allow it to rehabilitate the composer.

Zhdanov was a political hack/Party bureaucrat heavily involved in the Purges, until ironically he was purged in the summer of 1948 for being too gentle with Tito;  his cultural doctrine lived on after him.  He was actually an in law of Stalin: Zhdanov's son married Stalin's daughter, so Stalin and Zhdanov shared a granddaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Zhdanov

[Karl Henning]

On much the same lines as, when Shostakovich was working with Mayakovsky on The Bed-Bug, the poet told him that his favorite music was fire-brigade bands . . . in his first Cello Concerto, Shostakovich included a twisted version of "Suliko," a Georgian dance tune which was said to be Stalin's favorite music.

[Scion7]

Surely Shostakovich is the Last Great Romantic Composer ...

"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

The last GREAT Romantic?  Hmmm ... Well, Mahler was a transitional figure, and Rachmaninov was pretty good, but he's borderline "great" IMO . . . same for ol' Rafe ... Sibelius, Nielsen, Strauss, Saint Saens  ... ummmm ... I think, going by date of death (1897) that the last truly "great" Romantic was Brahms.  That's what you get, Tchaikovsky, for not out-living him.     Many awesome 2nd-tiers, tho' - Faure, Bruch, etc.

Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!

[snyprrr]

I believe it's a matter of record that Stalin thought DSCH was an excellent composer of film scores.  At the very least,  he composed scores for what are apparently two of the best known cult movies about Stalin:  The Year 1919 and The Fall of Berlin (or at least two movies Stalin liked a lot, since they were about Stalin.)

Stalin's opinion of DSCH's symphonic output is murkier.  Presumably he liked the Fifth enough to allow it to rehabilitate the composer.

Zhdanov was a political hack/Party bureaucrat heavily involved in the Purges, until ironically he was purged in the summer of 1948 for being too gentle with Tito;  his cultural doctrine lived on after him.  He was actually an in law of Stalin: Zhdanov's son married Stalin's daughter, so Stalin and Zhdanov shared a granddaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Zhdanov

Who does Zhdanov look like?? It's funny...

never trust a guy with that 'stache!!


Haha- Stalin told him to stop drinking, haha!!

"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

The last GREAT Romantic?  Hmmm ... Well, Mahler was a transitional figure, and Rachmaninov was pretty good, but he's borderline "great" IMO . . . same for ol' Rafe ... Sibelius, Nielsen, Strauss, Saint Saens  ... ummmm ... I think, going by date of death (1897) that the last truly "great" Romantic was Brahms.  That's what you get, Tchaikovsky, for not out-living him.     Many awesome 2nd-tiers, tho' - Faure, Bruch, etc.

Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!

For this I'm using 'Modern' for Boulez, etc.,... Shosty still wrote...mm... 'music' (I'm being cheeky).... he wrote 'normal' music, so, I'm including him in the canon-

oy vey---- nevermind, haha!!!!......... The Last Beethovenian?














btw- I almost consider SQ 5 my new all-time fav DSCH work- I didn't know his 'DSCH' theme is incorporated here like in no other work, it is totally submerged. The piece is so WROUGHT in perfection, so dense with polyphony (from the 24 just recently written)... ahhhh... the two opposing themes are masterfully brought together... such a piece of Pure Music!

[Karl Henning]

"Romantic"?  I'd classify him as Modern.

Well, he is both.  In just such a way as the Prokofiev f minor Violin Sonata is both.

After "Muddle Instead of Music" it was necessary for Shostakovich to suppress (or Romantify) his Modernist inclinations.  After Stalin's death, he did not "snap back" into Modernism, but was able to "thaw" that aspect of his musical personality.

I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism (of the greatest Russian composers of the 20^th c., only Stravinsky really turned his back, so to speak, on the rich Romantic tradition of Russian music) with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.

Now, was Shostakovich the last truly great Modern composer?  That's supportable/arguable!

Balderdash!

[snyprrr]

Well, he is both.  In just such a way as the Prokofiev f minor Violin Sonata is both.

After "Muddle Instead of Music" it was necessary for Shostakovich to suppress (or Romantify) his Modernist inclinations.  After Stalin's death, he did not "snap back" into Modernism, but was able to "thaw" that aspect of his musical personality.

I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism (of the greatest Russian composers of the 20^th c., only Stravinsky really turned his back, so to speak, on the rich Romantic tradition of Russian music) with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.

Balderdash!

finally Karl agrees with me on something! Shostakovich, the Broken Butterfly Beauty at All Costs

[amw]

On much the same lines as, when Shostakovich was working with Mayakovsky on The Bed-Bug, the poet told him that his favorite music was fire-brigade bands . . . in his first Cello Concerto, Shostakovich included a twisted version of "Suliko," a Georgian dance tune which was said to be Stalin's favorite music.

Pretty sure that is the 2nd concerto actually.

I've always wondered what would have happened to Shostakovich if he had been exempted from the Great Terror & allowed to continue writing whatever he pleased. There's enough of an artistic crisis going on around the time of the 4th symphony that it's possible to imagine he might have changed directions anyway. It's sort of fun to imagine a DSCH neoclassical phase, or full-blown serialism (not that half-arsed stuff in the 12th quartet), or Mahler symphonies 12 through 24 (counting the 4th as Mahler 11).

[Brian]

I should, in fact, argue that his entirely coherent melding of Russian Romanticism with Modernist awareness does, in fact, qualify him as the Last Great Romantic.

I think I have argued before, on this forum, that the Symphony No. 10 is a conscious end to the Russian Romantic symphonic tradition, especially since it shares so much formal structure with Rachmaninov's Second (E minor, huge slowish first movement, scherzo before slow mvt., motto theme presented by cellos and basses). That would make it the last great romantic symphony, right?

I've always wondered what would have happened to Shostakovich if he had been exempted from the Great Terror & allowed to continue writing whatever he pleased.

The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?

[kishnevi]

The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?

Were they not written during the Zhdanov era? And hence part of the Second Terror, and not the Terror of the 30s to which the Fourth fell victim.
I think the question of what the Fifth Symphony would have sounded like without the denunciation of Lady Macbeth and the suppression of the Fourth has so many possible answers it is unanswerable.  My instinct is that DSCH would have pushed the symphonic form to the limit and then abandon it.  Do not forget that one reason the Fourth was withdrawn was the claim it was technically beyond the ability of the orchestra.  Or possibly he would have gone on the line of the violin and cello concertos, and written piano concertos for himself.  But it is all speculation.

[Karl Henning]

Pretty sure that is the 2nd concerto actually.

I realize we should test what we find there regularly, but I checked Wikipedia before posting.

I think I have argued before, on this forum, that the Symphony No. 10 is a conscious end to the Russian Romantic symphonic tradition, especially since it shares so much formal structure with Rachmaninov's Second (E minor, huge slowish first movement, scherzo before slow mvt., motto theme presented by cellos and basses). That would make it the last great romantic symphony, right?

I think your case is sound.

The 24 Preludes and Fugues were written in private, hidden, and only published after Stalin's death, right?

Jeffrey is right, it was during the ждановщина (zhdanovshchina), composed from 1951 to '52.  I should post it here at the Dacha, there is a touching account I read in Elizabeth Wilson's oral history book of Dmitri Dmitriyevich being treated shabbily (yet again) by the Composers Union as they "reviewed" the Op.87