Biggest Economy in the World

[Bonehelm]

Because Chinese civilization = Chinese race? The last time somebody made that type of connection we called them nazi...

The real attitude behind the act? What attitude?

By the way, generalizing the entire Chinese civilization in the past is still racism. It's being racist to people of the past. And don't forget Chinese people are DESCENDANTS of the Chinese civilization from the past. So what if I called your great great great  grandfather bad names? Can I just say that your great great great grandfather was a person of the past and is irrelevant to your family? 

[MishaK]

Yes, because as we all know, once you burn down ships they can never be rebuild, not even after centuries. 

If you keep the ban up for two or three generations, you lose the expertise on how they are to be built and operated.

I love how the anti-western revisionists never mention Japan, the only Asian power who was able to stand toe to toe with the west (by adopting western ways in the first place. For the slow, that means a bit more then having a really cool fleet), and they did it without being backed by an immense civilization like that of China nor did they have a huge trading fleet to start with. What gives?

Who says it is not mentioned. Indeed, Japan supports the observation that Europe's advantages stem from unique geographical advantages not replicated anywhere exept Japan. But note that Japan only colonized its immediate neighbors. Unlike the Portuges, Spanish, French and British who were far ahead of the Japanese in technological development. China could have rivaled them if it had not been for one fateful stupid decision.

By all accounts, even if China had kept their awesome fleet they still wouldn't have been able to resist the west. Their civilization was too decadent for that, their bureaucracy too suffocating. The fact they burned their fleet is irrelevant, what decided their future was the very attitude behind the act...

By "all accounts"? Hardly. Both the suffocating bureaucracy and the decadence developed later and were likewise human decisions, not inevitable developments. I reccomend you take a look at "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. He discusses the Chinese decision to burn their ships, along other fateful bad and good decitions of different societies that affected their future place in history.

[Bonehelm]

If you keep the ban up for two or three generations, you lose the expertise on how they are to be built and operated.

Who says it is not mentioned. Indeed, Japan supports the observation that Europe's advantages stem from unique geographical advantages not replicated anywhere exept Japan. But note that Japan only colonized its immediate neighbors. Unlike the Portuges, Spanish, French and British who were far ahead of the Japanese in technological development. China could have rivaled them if it had not been for one fateful stupid decision.

By "all accounts"? Hardly. Both the suffocating bureaucracy and the decadence developed later and were likewise human decisions, not inevitable developments. I reccomend you take a look at "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. He discusses the Chinese decision to burn their ships, along other fateful bad and good decitions of different societies that affected their future place in history.

Mensch you look like you're quite knowledgeable on this topic. Where are you from? If you don't mind me asking 

[Josquin des Prez]

If you keep the ban up for two or three generations, you lose the expertise on how they are to be built and operated.

For five straight centuries and after being tramped over by western powers? What an absurd notion. One needs to wonder how they came about building their fleet in the first place.

Indeed, Japan supports the observation that Europe's advantages stem from unique geographical advantages not replicated anywhere exept Japan.

Which is why Japan only rose to power after adopting western ways. Ho wait, that makes absolutely no sense, doesn't it? The revisionist refusal to believe that western prowess is inherent to cultural values rather then sheer luck is the reason why political correctness is such a cancerous affliction. You eschew reality in order to construct this false notion of 'cultural' equality and at the same time bury the very cultural differences and social attitudes that made human achievement possible through out the ages in the first place.

Western domination was not the result of mere naval power, nor was it a matter of geographical advantages. It was the adoption of values and attitudes that correctly steered our civilization to maximize the potential for progress and human achievement and which plunged Europe into the future with the force of a nuclear blast. In little more then five centuries we went from an primitive agrarian society to the ultra technological behemoth we have today. At the time of western ascension no other civilization even hinted towards such revolutionary step forwards and if it wasn't for Europe the world today might have not have looked much different then it did in the middle ages.

We should strive to preserve those values and ideas that brought us thus far (which BTW include a good deal of self respect and personal strength, things which the west today is completely devoid of), but somehow that isn't a priority to some.

But note that Japan only colonized its immediate neighbors.

While Europeans went around the world and back. What's your point?

Unlike the Portuges, Spanish, French and British who were far ahead of the Japanese in technological development. China could have rivaled them if it had not been for one fateful stupid decision.

Yes, darn the burning of those ships. If it wasn't for that China could have developed nuclear power and advanced neural networks by the time Europe got around 'discovering' gun power.

BTW, care to explain the notorious disinterest China had for all western technology and knowledge? (a disinterested which the Japanese did not share).

By "all accounts"? Hardly. Both the suffocating bureaucracy and the decadence developed later and were likewise human decisions, not inevitable developments.

Civilization itself is a set of human decisions. All cultures are nothing but a collection of arbitrary believes and attitudes. Sometimes those believes and attitudes work towards progress and the betterment of the human condition, some times they work against it. If China had in in them to follow the same path of Europe the destruction of their trading fleet would have never occurred in the first place.

[Bonehelm]

For five straight centuries and after being tramped over by western powers? What an absurd notion. One needs to wonder how they came about building their fleet in the first place.

Which is why Japan only rose to power after adopting western ways. Ho wait, that makes absolutely no sense, doesn't it? The revisionist refusal to believe that western prowess is inherent to cultural values rather then sheer luck is the reason why political correctness is such a cancerous affliction. You eschew reality in order to construct this false notion of 'cultural' equality and at the same time bury the very cultural differences and social attitudes that made human achievement possible through out the ages in the first place.

Western domination was not the result of mere naval power, nor was it a matter of geographical advantages. It was the adoption of values and attitudes that correctly steered our civilization to maximize the potential for progress and human achievement and which plunged Europe into the future with the force of a nuclear blast. In little more then five centuries we went from an primitive agrarian society to the ultra technological behemoth we have today. At the time of western ascension no other civilization even hinted towards such revolutionary step forwards and if it wasn't for Europe the world today might have not have looked much different then it did in the middle ages.

We should strive to preserve those values and ideas that brought us thus far (which BTW include a good deal of self respect and personal strength, things which the west today is completely devoid of), but somehow that isn't a priority to some.

While Europeans went around the world and back. What's your point?

Yes, darn the burning of those ships. If it wasn't for that China could have developed nuclear power and advanced neural networks by the time Europe got around 'discovering' gun power.

BTW, care to explain the notorious disinterest China had for all western technology and knowledge? (a disinterested which the Japanese did not share).

Civilization itself is a set of human decisions. All cultures are nothing but a collection of arbitrary believes and attitudes. Sometimes those believes and attitudes work towards progress and the betterment of the human condition, some times they work against it. If China had in in them to follow the same path of Europe the destruction of their trading fleet would have never occurred in the first place.

*sigh*..People like you are hopeless. All you have in your mind is how great your own civilization is...nationalism is the west's greatest weakness.

[Josquin des Prez]

All you have in your mind is how great your own civilization is...

I prefer it to the alternative, to express nothing but the most sincere respect and admiration for everybody in the world except white westerners

[Bonehelm]

I prefer it to the alternative, to express nothing but the most sincere respect and admiration for everybody in the world except white westerners

No idea what your point was but whatever, okay. I don't want to get political on this peaceful, friendly community. Let's not get ugly. I'll stick to my view and you'll stick to yours from now on. Fair enough? 

[mahlertitan]

chinese nazis, wow, the third Chin Dynasty...

[Scriptavolant]

The F Scale is getting incandescent around here!

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm

[Hector]

Actually, french and russian economies are bigger than Californian.
California (1,5 $trillions)  is between Russia (1,7) and Canada (1.2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California
The economy of Russia is almost 6 times as big as the economy of New-Jersey.

Sorry, I suspect that those figures are suspect or out of date. typical wikepedia.

[quintett op.57]

Sorry, I suspect that those figures are suspect or out of date. typical wikepedia.

I made a mistake : It was russian GNP and not GDP

But still, New Jersey GDP does not equal Russia's. After checking, I found (in 2005) 431 billions for New Jersey and 763 for Russia.
Californian GDP  does not equal French GDP.
Maybe Californian GDP in $ = French GDP in €.
The figure I've found for California in 2005 is 1621 $billions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
This is wikipedia again, but the figures are from the world bank and the IMF.

Anyway, soon both english, french, italian and californian GDP will be lower than brasilian, chinese and indian.
Actually, China is already the 4th economic power.

[MishaK]

For five straight centuries and after being tramped over by western powers? What an absurd notion. One needs to wonder how they came about building their fleet in the first place.

The point is that they wouldn't have been "tramped over" by western powers if they hadn't made some fateful stupid decisions that set them back technologically instead of developing the vast advantage they had. Compare Europe in the middle ages vs. China with its advanced society, printing press, advanced agriculture, etc. to Europe pre-renaissance. A neutral observer looking at the two would never have expected Europe to outdo China and China to decline. These things aren't set in stone. Advantages can be lost and gained based on the decisions of humans.

Which is why Japan only rose to power after adopting western ways. Ho wait, that makes absolutely no sense, doesn't it? The revisionist refusal to believe that western prowess is inherent to cultural values rather then sheer luck is the reason why political correctness is such a cancerous affliction. You eschew reality in order to construct this false notion of 'cultural' equality and at the same time bury the very cultural differences and social attitudes that made human achievement possible through out the ages in the first place.

Japan didn't only rise to power after adopting Western ways. It was already more advanced than its Chinese and Korean neighbors by the time the Europeans showed up. All the way up until the unification of the country under the Tokugawa emperor in the mid 18th century, Japan was a geographically varied land with lots of different local shoguns controlling different parts of the country, competing with each other for power and through this competition they spurred technological innovation. In this, Japan, and only Japan, resembled the Europe of the Renaissance. Nowhere else were geographical advantages as favorable as on the European continent. Remember that most other non-western countries were completely overrun by the West, whereas Japan was strong enough to buy some time and rearm with Western methods. But it never fully adopted Western ways and still to this day retains a very distinct own character. You would never confuse Japanese values for Western values.

If you had read a little more carefully, you would have noticed that I make no claims of cultural equality and don't speak about any matters of chance. The Chinese decline is very much a matter of human decisions. Things could have turned out very differently. It is neither an indictment of Chinese or European culture nor a matter of chance. Compare Europe in the early middle ages. It was a miserable place that showed none of the promise that we associate with it today. Completely backwards and willfully destructive of its rich past heritage and technology. Indeed, it can be said that without the black plague and the 30% population reduction that resulted in a redistribution of land and therefore greater agricultural surplus, the Renaissance would have never taken off. Cultures aren't equal, but likewise there is no cultural blueprint that is a failsafe roadmap to success. You still need good decisions and good natural resources. Nor do cultures come out of nowhere. You cannot grow an advanced culture based on a land with msierable topsoil and where taro is the only source of carbohydrates. You need fertile lands and strong durable cereals that provide a good calorie-to-agricultural-labor-input-ratio. Europe and Japan were uniquely favored in this respect (note also that they inhabit the same temperate climate zone and benefit from similar warm sea currents).

Western domination was not the result of mere naval power, nor was it a matter of geographical advantages. It was the adoption of values and attitudes that correctly steered our civilization to maximize the potential for progress and human achievement and which plunged Europe into the future with the force of a nuclear blast. In little more then five centuries we went from an primitive agrarian society to the ultra technological behemoth we have today. At the time of western ascension no other civilization even hinted towards such revolutionary step forwards and if it wasn't for Europe the world today might have not have looked much different then it did in the middle ages.

Values don't come out of nowhere. And you present the West as a sort of culturally homogeneous block which it never was. If there had been the sort of agreement on values that you posit, there never would have been the Pelopponesian war, the Roman invasions of Gaul and Britain, the sacking of Rome, the split of Rome and Byzantium, the 100-years war, the 30-years war, the French revolution, the 1848 revolution, the October revolution, WWI, WWII etc. There were a myriad opportunities for history to take a very different turn in which case the Western values we are speaking of today would have been a very different set of values entirely. Remember that witchburning, communism and fascism are also Western values. Today's western culture wasn't the result of an inexorable pre-programmed blueprint. Much of pre-Renaissance European culture, if you really knew its customs and habits, would be unrecognizable to us and more similar to fundamentalist Islam than to what we associate with the West today. Recall that charging interest (usury) was once forbidden, accumulation of wealth frowned upon, women were expected to wear headscarves or other headwear, marriages were arranged, brutal death penalties were normal and dissenters were executed or burned as witches. Your western values were based on a lot of nonsense.

But it is precisely this competition of different values in a very small space with a lot of people that is Europe's key to success. This diversity is indeed a result of a geography that provides favorable soils and climates yet keeps pockets of people separate through considerable, but not insurmountable obstacles like large rivers and mountains. Plus Europe boast two large, relatively calm, navigable interior bodies of water (the Mediterranean and the Baltic) where seafaring could be learned and developed at comparatively low risk, before developing the technology for venturing out onto the high seas. There just is no comparable place on earth. Japan comes closest.

We should strive to preserve those values and ideas that brought us thus far (which BTW include a good deal of self respect and personal strength, things which the west today is completely devoid of), but somehow that isn't a priority to some.

That is nonsense. Values can't be put in a jar with salt and vinegar and preserved. They need to be continually refined and developed in order for society to survive future crises, which requires constant challenge from and interaction with other competing values. Only through competition can we see what aspects are flawed, what can be improved and what should be discarded. It is precisely the advantage of the west that it doesn't censor any debate, but openly discusses problematic issues. Through this open discussion we come out wiser and our values become more refined and better applicable to future problems.

Yes, darn the burning of those ships. If it wasn't for that China could have developed nuclear power and advanced neural networks by the time Europe got around 'discovering' gun power.

It could have certainly developed further than it did. But this illustrates the central weakness of China: it was not as geographically diverse and was easily united by one central ruler. Hence, fateful decisions made centrally had far greater ramifications than in politically diverse Europe. Nobody ever conquered all of Europe and therefore never was in a position to give such long term effect to his bad decisions. Remember that Columbus, an Italian, begged many courts of his time to fund his expedition and all of them said no, until finally the Portuguese agreed. Imagine how different history would have been if there had been only one single European emperor. Compare to China which a century earlier had a more advanced culture. But there would have been only one emperor to beg to fund an expedition. If he had said no, that would have been the end of it. So you see, European values are not a homogeneous single thing. It is precisely their diversity and the cacophony of opinions that are the key advantage of the West. But you can't even begin to develop this without a favorable geography, climate and natural resources.

BTW, care to explain the notorious disinterest China had for all western technology and knowledge? (a disinterested which the Japanese did not share).

Hubris of its rulers (naive belief in the inherent superiority of their own culture) and lack of competing powers within. See above. China is the prototypical example of why too much centralization of power is lethal. Note also that in the West, many states disintegrated shortly after they accomplished full centralization: France centralized under Louis XIV and brought about the revolution; Germany centralized under Bismarck, which led to Hitler which led to WWII and collapse, postwar Germany now is a decentralized federal state; Italy same story: centralized, then fascism, WWII, collapse; etc.

Civilization itself is a set of human decisions. All cultures are nothing but a collection of arbitrary believes and attitudes. Sometimes those believes and attitudes work towards progress and the betterment of the human condition, some times they work against it. If China had in in them to follow the same path of Europe the destruction of their trading fleet would have never occurred in the first place.

You are contradicting yourself here. If it is arbitrary (something I never claimed) and if it's a matter of human decisions, then what do you mean by "if China had it in them"? Decisions can be good or bad, but you may not know that if you don't get instant feedback. China faced a lack of competition for power and too great of a distance from other major cultures to see the significance of their decision to burn their ships. The Europeans did not land at their shores until all the people involved in that decision were dead and gone. If the Athenians had burned their ships, you bet the Persians would have notified them of the stupidity of that choice in an instant.

[Lethevich]

ttt

[Mozart]

Non stop police sirens and car alarms, street dogs mating calls, and drunken shouts. My own orchestra performs for me nightly.

[Hector]

I made a mistake : It was russian GNP and not GDP

But still, New Jersey GDP does not equal Russia's. After checking, I found (in 2005) 431 billions for New Jersey and 763 for Russia.
Californian GDP  does not equal French GDP.
Maybe Californian GDP in $ = French GDP in €.
The figure I've found for California in 2005 is 1621 $billions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
This is wikipedia again, but the figures are from the world bank and the IMF.

Anyway, soon both english, french, italian and californian GDP will be lower than brasilian, chinese and indian.
Actually, China is already the 4th economic power.

...and your conclusion is, besides the fact that you think a state/country economy can be judged on GDP alone?

[quintett op.57]

what do you suggest?

[Hector]

what do you suggest?

Here's a clue: percentage of GDP that goes on the public sector?

[bwv 1080]

Here's a clue: percentage of GDP that goes on the public sector?

There are four components of GDP: Investment + consumption + government spending + net imports/exports.  Government spending as a % of GDP I would guess is highest in North Korea, so that country must be the best right?

[Sarastro]

Wow, one more thread about China. Quite a reading.

[Bonehelm]

Wow, one more thread about China. Quite a reading.

Oh man, you don't know what you just started there...