Comparing Composers

[Luke]

Perhaps you believe he was undeserving to win, perhaps you believe he somehow cheated.  At any rate it is not my place to tell you, your opinion is invalid, only YOU can decide that.

So, if I believed something which was self-evidently stupid and which really would be crying out to be corrected, and which it would be unkind to leave uncorrected, you would allow me to go on merrily believing it?

Competence and greatness are not the same thing.

No, exactly. But in order to be great, one must at the least be competent, yes? Greatness is an impossible thing to quantify (though they are having a good time trying to pin it down on another thread), but competence isn't. Competence is a bare minimum, and it can be measured, because it is artless, it is just craft. But you mixed the two things up yourself when you told us that Mozart wasn't a great composer and that he was incompetent. I can't argue with the first of those conclusions, even if I disagree, because it isn't measurable. But I will argue with the second, because it IS measurable. That has always been my point here.

It is your personal opinion and I honor that, however I disagree strongly as the same does not apply to music and compositional skills in my life.  Someone actually has to be a good composer based on the fruit of his labour before I put forth my opinion of him or her as a good composer.  This is all highly personal opinions.  Sometimes a large number of people can hold the same opinions, but this does not magically turn opinions into facts.  Facts are indisputable, as long as their are contrasting opinions they are not facts. 

"Mozart was a bad composer who died too late rather than too early."
Glenn Gould

If opions are such individual things, if no one's opinion counts more than anyone else's, why on earth are you quoting that peculiar person Glenn Gould at me/us?

[Teresa]

So, if I believed something which was self-evidently stupid and which really would be crying out to be corrected, and which it would be unkind to leave uncorrected, you would allow me to go on merrily believing it?

Who am I to say your belief is stupid?  It is not my place to criticize your belief, all I can do is state why I believe something different.  It is up to you, and only you to decide to keep or change your belief.

No, exactly. But in order to be great, one must at the least be competent, yes? Greatness is an impossible thing to quantify (though they are having a good time trying to pin it down on another thread), but competence isn't. Competence is a bare minimum, and it can be measured, because it is artless, it is just craft. But you mixed the two things up yourself when you told us that Mozart wasn't a great composer and that he was incompetent. I can't argue with the first of those conclusions, even if I disagree, because it isn't measurable. But I will argue with the second, because it IS measurable. That has always been my point here.

I only said he was a bad composer and I gave my reasons, such as too repetitious using too many repeats, sickening sweet melody lines with not enough differing melodic material, uninspired and drab harmony lines.  As I clearly stated these are my personal opinions.  Some people may love his repetition, some my love his limited melodic material and consider it sublime or hypnotic.  I was just clearly and honestly stating I do not.  I also stated that he was a competent composer as he generally followed the rules of composition.  His incompetence is in the details.   

If opions are such individual things, if no one's opinion counts more than anyone else's, why on earth are you quoting that peculiar person Glenn Gould at me/us?

To prove that Greatness can never be considered a fact as long as there are many, many people with dissenting opinions.  There were lots of other opinions at the link I provided.  Opinions are NOT facts.

[(poco) Sforzando]

His incompetence is in the details.

Could you give us just one or two of those details?

[Teresa]

Could you give us just one or two of those details?

I did, I gave four at the beginning of the same paragraph.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I did, I gave four at the beginning of the same paragraph.

I want specific instances from specific compositions.

[Teresa]

I want specific instances from specific compositions.

Sorry to disappoint but all 41 musical works I have owned by him over a 40 year period were sold many years ago.  Here is the list.

Instead why not trust your own feelings about a composer's skills and abilities rather than relying on others?  That is what I do and what I think most music lovers do. 

[Mirror Image]

Sorry to disappoint but all 41 musical works I have owned by him over a 40 year period were sold many years ago.  Here is the list.

Instead why not trust your own feelings about a composer's skills and abilities rather than relying on others?  That is what I do and what I think most music lovers do. 

Teresa, I don't understand why continue to give your opinion over and over and have to prove anything to anyone? I don't like Mozart, you don't like Mozart. It's our right not to like his music and we have our reasons for not liking his music. If somebody else can't accept that, then that is their own insecurity. I, for one, revel in the fact that I'm at the point in my life where I finally understand what it is that I'm looking for musically and Mozart doesn't even make that long list of composers that I listen to and consider great.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Sorry to disappoint but all 41 musical works I have owned by him over a 40 year period were sold many years ago.  Here is the list.

Instead why not trust your own feelings about a composer's skills and abilities rather than relying on others?  That is what I do and what I think most music lovers do. 

In other words, you're unable to answer the question. What a surprise.

[Teresa]

In other words, you're unable to answer the question. What a surprise.

I wonder why my opinion is so important to you?  If you are really curious go to the link I provided, all of my complaints about Mozart's compasitional skills apply to all 41 compositions listed.  I am shocked  my opinion means so much to you!  Can we please talk about some other composer than Mozart?

[karlhenning]

Sorry to disappoint but all 41 musical works I have owned by him over a 40 year period were sold many years ago.  Here is the list.

Ah, the unmistakable sound of a mind snapped tight shut!

[karlhenning]

Can we please talk about some other composer than Mozart?

Well, he's certainly part of the thread's topic.  His music is of such surpassing excellence, hardly any composer compares to him on his own terms.

Certainly not his dad, Leopold.

[Teresa]

Teresa, I don't understand why continue to give your opinion over and over and have to prove anything to anyone? I don't like Mozart, you don't like Mozart. It's our right not to like his music and we have our reasons for not liking his music. If somebody else can't accept that, then that is their own insecurity. I, for one, revel in the fact that I'm at the point in my life where I finally understand what it is that I'm looking for musically and Mozart doesn't even make that long list of composers that I listen to and consider great.

Thanks so much for you understanding, support and clear thinking.   

[karlhenning]

In other words, you're unable to answer the question. What a surprise.

I wonder why my opinion is so important to you?

I wonder why you cannot answer the question?

[Teresa]

Ah, the unmistakable sound of a mind snapped tight shut!

So do you know of a composition by Mozart that is DRASTICALLY different than the 41 compositions I've owned?  I am willing to listen to anything you provide.

[Mirror Image]

So do you know of a composition by Mozart that is DRASTICALLY different than the 41 compositions I've owned?  I am willing to listen to anything you provide.

You're quite welcome. It's nice meeting somebody who actually DOESN'T like Mozart's music.

[karlhenning]

Thanks so much for you understanding, support and clear thinking.   

Yes, of the two of you, at least we can rely on Mirror Image for clear thinking.

My dear, I do wonder why you cannot take the point that so many have been at careful pains to make plain to you.

Mozart is one of the world's very greatest composers.  Period.  Not any question of opinion, or of "freedom of thought" (gawd, you can be the funny one).  He doesn't become "a bad composer" just because you've taken a dislike to him.  Your dislike, you see, is such a very feeble thing in comparison to Mozart's musical excellence.  Haydn swore that he was the greatest composer he knew;  whose opinion are we going to value: yours, or Haydn's?

One of the things I like about Mirror Image is, he doesn't put on a dog-&-pony show about his dislike for Mozart. He understands that his dislike for Mozart is something on an entirely different plane to Mozart's inarguable greatness.

[Teresa]

I wonder why my opinion is so important to you?

I wonder why you cannot answer the question?

Only YOU can answer the question of WHY my opinions are so important to you.  I should be honored I guess, but no ones opinion (not even mine) should be held in such high esteem. 

[karlhenning]

You're quite welcome. It's nice meeting somebody who actually DOESN'T like Mozart's music.

I've met several. I just hadn't met anyone before Teresa who wished to make her dislike of Mozart "mean" that he is "a bad composer."

[karlhenning]

Only YOU can answer the question of WHY my opinions are so important to you.

My dear, your opinion is balderdash.  There are pieces of discarded wash-towels on the street which mean more to me than your opinion about Mozart, whose greatness is inarguable.  I marvel that your mind cannot embrace the idea that your likes or dislikes do not determine any composer's greatness.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I wonder why my opinion is so important to you?  If you are really curious go to the link I provided, all of my complaints about Mozart's compasitional skills apply to all 41 compositions listed.  I am shocked  my opinion means so much to you!  Can we please talk about some other composer than Mozart?

Your opinion doesn't mean sh-t to me. You have been asked for one specific example, chapter and verse, of any of the flaws you allege, and you are unable to do so. Hence the logical conclusion, confirmed by your evasiveness, is that you know nothing of the music you claim to so dislike other than a few vague recollections.