Chez Stravinsky

[snyprrr]

I think Bruckner and Sibelius beat ol' Igor to the proto-minimialistic punch here.

but it becomes very obvious with Igor- ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ...


MI- have  you heard Maazel's 'Psalms'?

Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?

Apollo? (I settle with Dutoit and Chailly, maybe Rattle (I do need modern sound for this one)

Petrushka?- I can't seem to find a "violent" enough version... I'm leaning towards Boulez/SONY, or Dorati/Decca... for some reason this score hasn't grabbed me by the throat- I definitely need an over-the-top blood+guts version

[Karl Henning]

Any ideas about the Piano+Orch works?

I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .


The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.

[snyprrr]

I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .


The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.

a) Can anyone tell me why that Beroff/Ozawa set is so highly maligned? I thought the 'Movements', for instance, didn't embarrass themselves, imo, lol, and the 'Capriccio' starts off with the most drama around- and you can hear the piano!! I dunno- is their "glare" or "hardness, brittleness", or do they suck, or what? what?? sounds ok to me- but now there is so much digital competition for a chiseled work such as 'Movements'.

b) I have the Rattle here, yea, it's nice and dark and big, yet poised- I thought some longeurs? But, yea, either Rattle, Dutoit, or Chailly- must have digital strings for this most refined string work.



c) CAN SOMEONE TELL ME PLEASE- is there one flippin' recording of 'Psalms', BESIDES Igor/CBS, that isn't recorded across the opera house? OY VEY!! I mean, please, bear with me- listen to the opening of CBS, how you can hear all the instruments, even though there is some acoustical space- at the rising semitone, you can HEAR THE HORN WHOOPING- which is something I struggle to hear in everything I'm checking out.

Chailly? Are you kidding me? Even though his seems far away, it still has more oomph than Simon Preston/Decca.. But, for me the problem is brought in spades in the Chailly- in some kind of effort to balance the (frankly) smallish orchestra with the chorus, MOST ALL ENGINEERS seem to opt for the "distance" approach, which usually is noticed from the very first chord hit and the impression it makes in the sonic space. The Chailly sounds to me like one of those Nimbus recordings, which always sounds like a "perfect" bootleg (a small aural image surrounded by ambient reverb).

By contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa). All the tooting and burping from the lower winds is heard. The descending to the abyss oboe run is heard- imagine how far away it is in the Chailly.

I just got the Maazel, and though what I heard on the samples still comes across- I really think this is a great take- the distance is just a little farther than the CBS- YES, I'm being  uber picky here, but, for all its beauty of sound, that slight distance is all it takes to blend those horns into that opening so they really just don't pop out at you like they should (I should say, though, that because of the slightly quicker tempo, this one does have some more clarity, in a way). Now, I may be able to get used to this Maazel, but, as I was scouring the field again (oy, Bernstein soooo sloooow), I just noticed that everyone is having real difficulty getting a good recording balance here.

Solti's balance seems just a touch farther than Maazel (which was just a touch farther than Igor),  Again, it seems to be par for the course. Didn't check MMT yet. Bertini, on Orfeo, is not quite as far away as Chailly, but somehow has a nice presence- I really liked this one, but, again, why can't I have some micing?

WHY CAN'T I GET UP FRONT AND CLEAR?? I know, I'm waiting on the Boulea and Rattle already...

Craft? Kinda far away.

I WANT TO HEAR THE OBOE AND BASSOON!! THE HORNS!!

THE FLIPPIN HARP-


Name me ONE version where you can actually hear the harp.





Hyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?


THE VOICES WERE WRITTEN TO BE LIKE INSTRUMENTS- MIX THEM TOGETHER AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!



gasping for air.... gasp....gasp.....ok..... pant......pant.....whew......


Was it the Shaw that had more reverb than 10 beach boys? Or was it just slow... or lame?... what was the problem there?...



ok, regroup...


Is it Sunday?...no, it's Thursday...


I need to go check the filter on my flange gasket

[snyprrr]

Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes
Abbado/LSO (DG)

It put me to sleep. It did, but I won't fault it,... really. It was also the first time I heard... most... of 'Jeu de Cartes', which starts off with the most pompous chord in all of Stravinsky (if I have any bead on his humor). Yea, I found JdC very odd, yet it had a Prokofien busy blandness that I couldn't keep up with. Surely, there must be some Prokofiev influence here? I did note how it was so much of older styles of music, but had a streamlined tone that could have only come from Europe 20s-30s. I'm not sure I'll be seeking out other versions, even though the 1980 DG sound shows its age just a tiny blush (it's pretty fine- I seem to prefer Decca sound during this period, well, what do you this of this sound?)

'Pulcinella' began to make me think I was a kid being dragged to the Opera. LOL. I mean, I did enjoy it- and I WAS lying down, with my hands clasped and my eyes closed,... arf... and yes, it was making me dream of bland things and trips to fancy places and social parties and such...zzz.....zzzzz.....zzz.....zzzz..zzzzz..... oh, and then it went to something else.


But, yea, these two scores seem to belong together, and, on this Abbado performance, present to me a side of Stravinsky which will stay on this disc. Nothing else sounds like these two pieces. 'Jeu', especially, sounds like Prokofiev to me... is it me?... but I can't place it as Igor yet. So, these two pieces are going to get filed with Prokofiev, odd.

I thought I like 'Jeu' more than I did.

Performance is fine, though- singing

[James]

By contrast, Igor/CBS has what sounds like the orchestra AMONGST the singers (or vice versa).

That's what I love about Igor's recordings in general .. even if the tuning is a bit ropey in places.
.. it feels like your sitting within the group hearing all that awesome rhythmic stuff.

Hyperion/O'Donnell??? Was that recorded in the other end of the cathedral?/

I really love the recording of the Mass on this one. Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this ..  the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound .. the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.

[James]

Pulcinella
Jeu de Cartes
Abbado/LSO (DG)

Pulcinella I can tolerate under certain conditions .. never really cared for the 'Card Game' & a few others in a similar vein, a whole slew from the middling period which are kind of blah by Igor's standards.

[arpeggio]

On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.

[Monsieur Croche]

On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.

(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)

You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

-- ah, instrumentalists ;-)

... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C: 
"DO - minum"


Always best regards.

[snyprrr]

Perhaps for Psalms try the Boulez/DG one, though it's a distant/ambient too if i recall, most of his DG re-treads suffer from this, blurring/marring/smudging the musical result .. and I can't believe he allowed it, or even wasted so much time re-recording stuff like this ..  the first run Sony recordings are often superior for up close sound ..


the DG has at least a very good Symphonies of Winds on it.[/size][/font]

^^^ Yes, that is the universal consensus that that's a not little SOWindInstr...

But yea, it seems like eeeveryone's got to have that ambience at all costs... ugh... yea, I'm having a little conniption fit here over this... is it too much to ask??... JUST ONE modern digital version where you can HEAR STUFF...

Yea, I thought Boulez was King of the Musical X-Ray... how dare he allow 'Psalms' to be anything less that irradiated.

On contrabassoon I have twice performed the Symphony of Psalm.  What is awesome is the final note includes the contra playing a low pedal C.  I have never heard a recording where one can hear that low C.

People should be arrested...


I have never wept over a low C until now... oh, fore soothe... poor bassoon, we hardly knew ye



IS THERE ONE OUT THERE?? JUST ONE??


My fav new part of 'Psalms' is that whooping horn right before the initial singing starts- and CBS is the only place I've heard it wail like a wounded brontosaur... also, those semi-tones in the strings??... oy, have you heard how weak they are in soooo many versions??....


ok, need to relax.... this thing has got me all pissy this morning, throwing vases and clearing desks... where's the rifles??...MA, PASS ME OVER THE TABLE SOME BULLETS!!!


I wonder how I'll react when I finally hear Rattle's, and that choir comes in in that obviously fake positioning, edited in no doubt...



I'M IN A FURIOUS RAGE!!!! STOP ME!! (Jim Carrey)  snap into a slimjim!!!!

[snyprrr]

A Clean Well Lit Place

What must one do to just find a 'Psalms' that just at least stands alongside Igor's?? Everyone's been overthinking this piece for 50 years now... get it straight people!!!... yes, YOU- I'm talkin to you M.r SONY Exec.,.... Mr. Universal Entertainment.... Warner Brahs...

AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

[arpeggio]

(I actually think its presence is audible in the Stravinsky / Columbia recording)

You expect to hear that contra as anything other than a contributor to the timbre of what is probably near a full tutti of an entire ensemble of 5 flutes (5th doubling piccolo), 4 oboes, cor anglais, 3 bassoons, and contrabassoon; 4 horns in F, piccolo trumpet, 4 trumpets in C, 3 trombones, and tuba; timpani, bass drum, 2 pianos, and harp; cellos and contrabasses; and a four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass)

-- ah, instrumentalists ;-)

... and talk about musical puns in a sacred work and that third movement being so very much In C: 
"DO - minum"


Always best regards.

You are right!!! You can hear and feel that wonderful subtle sound on the Columbia recording.  When I play it on a better stereo system it is there, you can feel it.  Oh joy unbounded.  Good old Igor got it right 

[Karl Henning]

I need to revisit Béroff/Ozawa . . . .

Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the Tango and the Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Karl Henning]

And Béroff was so energetically febrile with the Piano-Rag Music, I nearly didn't recognize it, at first.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[snyprrr]

Only a start, of course, but I've listened anew to the Tango and the Capriccio, and these are both delightfully nervy.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

The one Amazon Reviewer lays all the blame on the French engineers- says the piano sound is a disaster... says they got the orchestra right, but, again, didn't get the piano...

My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.

AND- Beroff and Ozawa seem to almost have the most delicate 'Movements'. I spent all day going over III. with all the version- ALL THE VERSIONS (Weber, Rosen, Bruins, Beroff, Crossley, Mustonen, Osborne, Bavouzet, Richter... couldn't find Oldfather/Craft)... I was surprised, I gave III. to Beroff, Weber, and Osborne, with Crossley rounding out.


I'm hot on the 'Movements' right now... I got III. down pretty good, understanding what he's doing... I'm starting to think it's the perfect Avant piece, sitting like a perch there in 1958, looking back, looking forward, a little Webern, a little Babbitt/Sessions...

I'm also hearing the jazziness... but only in the Rosen... you could actually play these "mit der swing" to get a real jazzy feel... I mean, it WAS written for a women, and I hear these delicious things that no one seems really to hang on (Richter&Co. seem to have taken the most care with the score- Baxouzet is starting to sound lazy to me (Osborne is very very icy, though).

Again, I look towards a Knussen 'Movements'.

[Karl Henning]

In the interview snippets which serve as liner notes to the CSO recording of the Symphony in Three Movements, Boulez sez:

The best parts of the Symphony in Three Movements for me are the first movement and part of the third, where he has an illustration of something in his mind. [Henning note: This is roughly equal parts presumptuous—Boulez knows where Stravinsky has "an illustration of something in his mind," and where not—and circular, since earlier in the interview he said "For me, Stravinsky is at his best when he illustrates something."]  At one moment in the first movement, you even find reminiscences of The Rite of Spring.  That's very surprising.  When I heard that for the first time—it was performed in France after the war—I thought, "Oh yes, certainly: the Rite of Spring surges again."

I made that connection—between the Symphony and Le sacre—myself, when I heard the Cleveland Orchestra play the Symphony.  (It was probably a little easier for me, since I had not heard all that many of the intervening Stravinsky pieces at that point.)  And why I point this out is, in the CSO recording Boulez especially brings out that "pagan Russian" vitality in the Symphony.

And, that Ozawa and Béroff perform the Capriccio, not like a wad of cotton candy off at the side, but like a companion piece to Le sacre and the Symphony in Three Movements.  Lots of focus and energy.  Love it!

My question, Karl- do you have the original wide 2CD, or the reissue, which I must assume has some re-mastering? Of course, remastering can't really fix an original recording issue... anyhow, is the piano image "hard, brittle"?? I really didn't hear anything too clanky when I check out the 'Serenade'.

Decades ago, I had the original, and it didn't sing to me. (But, as with the Lenny Les noces, let's presume that I failed to listen to it under favorable conditions.)  Now I've got the reissue.  I hear warmth in the piano tone, without it being cushy;  I think it perfectly suitable, in other words.

[North Star]

Finnish National Opera Company's Rake's Progress (from April 2016) is available here for another three weeks. The performance starts at 17 minutes in the video.
http://areena.yle.fi/1-3399098

[snyprrr]

The Rattle Apollo is the recording which made me love the piece.

I'm assuming you mean the Birmingham?... Have we heard the new Rattle/Berlin, also, I believe , on EMI? I'm going to relent and state the obvious, that that original Birmingham performance (and recording) are just about as much as anyone could perhaps want... so, I am curious if he ups the ante with the better orchestra... I mean... OK, I JUST LISTENED TO BERLIN SAMPLES- mmm... kinda over-plush... even I can't handle that much sugar... mm... too much of a good thing there maybe?

I just listened again to Craft Koch/Naxos- the timings against NewRattle show Rattle being a little indulgent. I wouldn't even seek out another 'Apollo' if I didn't hear just a touch of aggressiveness in the (Craft) recording, which does not seem to be there in the 'Orpheus' recording- same venue, different seasons, same year. Does anyone hear this? Maybe it's just an attenuation in the treble I'm hearing?

'Apollo''s always been an instant hit with me. Doesn't the ending of 2 sound like the DSCH VC 1? Anyhow, how is this supposed to sound like Lully?

[Mirror Image]

I'm assuming you mean the Birmingham?... Have we heard the new Rattle/Berlin, also, I believe , on EMI? I'm going to relent and state the obvious, that that original Birmingham performance (and recording) are just about as much as anyone could perhaps want... so, I am curious if he ups the ante with the better orchestra... I mean... OK, I JUST LISTENED TO BERLIN SAMPLES- mmm... kinda over-plush... even I can't handle that much sugar... mm... too much of a good thing there maybe?

I just listened again to Craft Koch/Naxos- the timings against NewRattle show Rattle being a little indulgent. I wouldn't even seek out another 'Apollo' if I didn't hear just a touch of aggressiveness in the (Craft) recording, which does not seem to be there in the 'Orpheus' recording- same venue, different seasons, same year. Does anyone hear this? Maybe it's just an attenuation in the treble I'm hearing?

'Apollo''s always been an instant hit with me. Doesn't the ending of 2 sound like the DSCH VC 1? Anyhow, how is this supposed to sound like Lully?

Check out Chailly's Apollo (if you haven't already). It's sublime.

[snyprrr]

Le Rossignol

(Renard)

Mavra


Oedipus Rex
Persephone


The Rake's Progress



I just can't get it up for Opera. I did enjoy 'Die Soldaten', which i might imagine could be a 99 year old Stravinsky's last work, but there is not enough of that ole' musical craziness in his Operas to keep me from thinking... "Opera"... I'm sorry, but when my ears hear "warbling male singer" (whether they do or not doesn't matter- I HEAR WARBLE ALWAYS!!), I shut down.

'Le Rossignol' I sampled a little bit, and, ok, it sounded somewhat charming, so, maybe we could give this some consideration in the future. (Boulez/Erato- Conlon/EMI)

'Renard': to ME, it's 16min. "Opera", lol. But, here, the sound of warbling male voices achieves the proper effect: humor! Yes, if it's all in good fun, then I can handle "Opera" like this. Now, I heard the Chailly first, and the pronouncing there has gotten stuck in my heard, so that Salonen and Dutoit sounded "off" to me. However, Stravinsky's own recording is truly wilder than them all, and in English!, revealing dialogue that made my ear perk up! Talk about detail! Anyway, if there haaas to be Opera, then, may it sound like this (maybe with a cool Ballade in the middle?).

'Mavra' sounded okaaay... yea, it's still lots of singing... did have an "old world" flavor, homey, made me sleepy (that's a good thing!).


'Oepidus Rex': I just can't get over male voices.  And, "they" were saying this was Stravinsky's "iciest" score, and that Salonen was the "iciest", so,... NOOOOO,... that's not what happened at all! Sure, I heard some cool rhythms, kind of Orff-like stuff, but, mm, eh, - I know, I know, Colin Davis. I was sooo disappointed that I couldn't get into this, I thought it would be the gateway...

'Persephone' I did like somewhat on first hearing. Second time I just heard people singing (it's like sea-sickness). I'll try again.

'The Rake's Progress', again, I wanted to be able to just get into it, but, mm, no, after the initial Neo-Classical Fanfare, the singing starts, and it's in English, so, I can't tell the difference between a Musical and an Opera now. I dunno... all these items can be had for about $5+sh., so, it shouldn't be a thing to check it out, but, I just can't seem to get excited over any of these Operas at the time. I'd just be sitting there staring at the speakers wondering how wasted I'd have to get to be able to sit through- even the shorter ones! No, please,... not Opera!!

Which is ok

Perhaps i thought I was going to heard some Avant Garde music along with the singing, it doesn't matter. I do recognize Stravinsky as an Opera Composer, which is the highest achievement in this way, so, I do certainly give him credit for being... hip.

But, it appears i can enjoy all the rest without apparently missing what I'm missing. I mean, I can always check it out on YT if it gets all OCD like... brrrrr, scary

I tried

[TheGSMoeller]

....a soldiers tale?   

+1
Love this piece. Both the suite and full version with narrator.