Is a Job a right or a privilege?

[Scarpia]

Since you don't want the link here is the entire Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which article 23 is but one of 30 articles:

Happy now, Gurn?  No link!   

[Teresa]

Good.  Did you hire just the people you needed and keep your costs as low as possible or did you hire extra people just to employ more people (and inflate your costs, presumably meaning either your profit is less, or nonexistent, or your prices higher)?  Need I tell you that if a business owner continues to operate at no profit or at a loss he will go out of business and not be able to hire anyone?

I already explained that FULL EMPLOYMENT can happen RIGHT NOW by just adjusting the workweek without creating a single new job!

At 10% Unemployment all one would need to do is adjust the workweek from 40 hours to 36 hours. 

At 20% Unemployment all one would need to do is adjust the workweek from 40 hours to 32 hours. 

from: An Economic Bill of Rights

"30-Hour Work Week: A 6-hour day with no cut in pay for the bottom 80% of the pay scale."

Since the workweek is adjusted nationwide, this gives no business an unfair advantage over another.  I also explained how this would be implemented and gave a link.   There is NO EXCUSE for any unemployment!

[Gurn Blanston]

Happy now, Gurn?  No link!   

A remotely reasonable person would have posted Article 23 with a short interpretation. But noo-o-o-o... 



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Paul Badura-Skoda - D 575 Sonata #09 in B for Pianoforte 2nd mvmt - Andante

[Teresa]

I don't understand how a democracy could ban the music and films Teresa does not enjoy.

Two ways by vote of the American people or by a court decision.  It was a court decision that legalized Pornography, all that would have to happen is it be reversed.  And currently music has self-imposed warning labels that were implicated under threat of a government ban.

Yes our government bans things, such as what can be imported.  The USA government as blocks foreign websites with child pornography and bestiality.  Historically the United States has banned books, music and movies.  It is only in recent history, that the depraved are allowed to run wild.  Someday we will get our morals back.   

[Teresa]

A remotely reasonable person would have posted Article 23 with a short interpretation. But noo-o-o-o... 

Because the other 29 articles CLEARLY SHOW why economic democracy can only happen in a democracy not a dictatorship.  Did you read all 30 articles?  I CANNOT MAKE IT ANY PLAINER. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Because the other 29 articles CLEARLY SHOW why economic democracy can only happen in a democracy not a dictatorship.  Did you read all 30 articles?  I CANNOT MAKE IT ANY PLAINER.

Yes, I read the entire melange. It didn't speak to my heart like you can. Seriously, instead of quoting propaganda, you should make a simple, declarative statement that includes the rationale for saying that only a democracy can support such a regime. The reason I want to know is that I have read all your other pearls, including one that has everyone working at 75% of the time for 100% of the pay and hiring others at full pay to do the same thing, and I am working out how a company will avoid total bankruptcy within a month or two. I am hoping that somehow the democracy thing will ride in to save the day. Seriously, I am.





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Paul Badura-Skoda - D 575 Sonata #09 in B for Pianoforte 4th mvmt - Allegro giusto

[Teresa]

Yes, who is going to give everyone a job, and by what authority, and what will happen when someone simply doesn't even bother to show up for his or her guaranteed job?

Already answered and NO new jobs need to be created to gain full employment. 

At 10% Unemployment all one would need to do is adjust the workweek from 40 hours to 36 hours. 

At 20% Unemployment all one would need to do is adjust the workweek from 40 hours to 32 hours. 

from: An Economic Bill of Rights

"30-Hour Work Week: A 6-hour day with no cut in pay for the bottom 80% of the pay scale."

Of course with a 30 hour work week we would have a labor shortage but that might be good for workers.  With a labor shortage we can gain back the losses given over to past three decades.  In the 1960's a family of four could be supported by one income, now it requires two.

If the worker is out sick, just like now they would get sick leave.

[Bulldog]

I already explained that FULL EMPLOYMENT can happen RIGHT NOW by just adjusting the workweek without without creating a single new job!

At 10% Unemployment all one would need to do is adjust the workweek from 40 hour to 36 hours. 

Under your scheme, labor costs would rise sharply for employers.  What would you do about that?

[DavidRoss]

Teresa's manifesto sounds awfully familiar:

        Chapter 7: THE BASIC RIGHTS, FREEDOMS, AND DUTIES OF CITIZENS OF THE USSR

        Article 39. Citizens of the USSR enjoy in full the social, economic, political and personal rights and freedoms proclaimed and guaranteed by the Constitution of the USSR and by Soviet laws. The socialist system ensures enlargement of the rights and freedoms of citizens and continuous improvement of their living standards as social, economic, and cultural development programmes are fulfilled.
        Enjoyment by citizens of their rights and freedoms must not be to the detriment of the interests of society or the state, or infringe the rights of other citizens.

        Article 40. Citizens of the USSR have the right to work (that is, to guaranteed employment and pay in accordance wit the quantity and quality of their work, and not below the state-established minimum), including the right to choose their trade or profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities, training and education, with due account of the needs of society.
        This right is ensured by the socialist economic system, steady growth of the productive forces, free vocational and professional training, improvement of skills, training in new trades or professions, and development of the systems of vocational guidance and job placement.

        Article 41. Citizens of the USSR have the right to rest and leisure.
        This right is ensured by the establishment of a working week not exceeding 41 hours, for workers and other employees, a shorter working day in a number of trades and industries, and shorter hours for night work; by the provision of paid annual holidays, weekly days of rest, extension of the network of cultural, educational, and health-building institutions, and the development on a mass scale of sport, physical culture, and camping and tourism; by the provision of neighborhood recreational facilities, and of other opportunities for rational use of free time.
        The length of collective farmers' working and leisure time is established by their collective farms.

        Article 42. Citizens of the USSR have the right to health protection.
        This right is ensured by free, qualified medical care provided by state health institutions; by extension of the network of therapeutic and health-building institutions; by the development and improvement of safety and hygiene in industry; by carrying out broad prophylactic measures; by measures to improve the environment; by special care for the health of the rising generation, including prohibition of child labour, excluding the work done by children as part of the school curriculum; and by developing research to prevent and reduce the incidence of disease and ensure citizens a long and active life.

        Article 43. Citizens of the USSR have the right to maintenance in old age, in sickness, and in the event of complete or partial disability or loss of the breadwinner.
        The right is guaranteed by social insurance of workers and other employees and collective farmers; by allowances for temporary disability; by the provision by the state or by collective farms of retirement pensions, disability pensions, and pensions for loss of the breadwinner; by providing employment for the partially disabled; by care for the elderly and the disabled; and by other forms of social security.

        Article 44. Citizens of the USSR have the rights to housing.
        This right is ensured by the development and upkeep of state and socially-owned housing; by assistance for co-operative and individual house building; by fair distribution, under public control, of the housing that becomes available through fulfilment of the programme of building well-appointed dwellings, and by low rents and low charges for utility services. Citizens of the USSR shall take good care of the housing allocated to them.

        Article 45. Citizens of the USSR have the right to education.
        This right is ensured by free provision of all forms of education, by the institution of universal, compulsory secondary education, and broad development of vocational, specialised secondary, and higher education, in which instruction is oriented toward practical activity and production; by the development of extramural, correspondence and evening courses, by the provision of state scholarships and grants and privileges for students; by the free issue of school textbooks; by the opportunity to attend a school where teaching is in the native language; and by the provision of facilities for self-education.

        Article 46. Citizens of the USSR have the right to enjoy cultural benefits.
        This rights is ensured by broad access to the cultural treasures of their own land and of the world that are preserved in state and other public collections; by the development and fair distribution of cultural and educational institutions throughout the country; by developing television and radio broadcasting and the publishing of books, newspapers and periodicals, and by extending the free library service; and by expanding cultural exchanges with other countries.

        Article 47. Citizens of the USSR, in accordance with the aims of building communism, are guaranteed freedom of scientific, technical, and artistic work. This freedom is ensured by broadening scientific research, encouraging invention and innovation, and developing literature and the arts. THe state provides the necessary material conditions for this and support for voluntary societies and unions of workers in the arts, organises introduction of inventions and innovations in production and other spheres of activity.
        The rights of authors, inventors and innovators are protected by the state.

        Article 48. Citizens of the USSR have the right to take part in the management and administration of state and public affairs and in the discussion and adoption of laws and measures of All-Union and local significance.
        This right is ensured by the opportunity to vote and to be elected to Soviets of People's Deputies and other elective state bodies, to take part in nationwide discussions and referendums, in people's control, in the work of state bodies, public organisations, and local community groups, and in meetings at places of work or residence.

        Article 49. Every citizen of the USSR has the right to submit proposals to state bodies and public organisations for improving their activity, and to criticise shortcomings in their work.
        Officials are obliged, within established time-limits, to examine citizens' proposals and requests, to reply to them, and to take appropriate action.
        Persecution for criticism is prohibited. Persons guilty of such persecution shall be called to account.

        Article 50. In accordance with the interests of the people and in order to strengthen and develop the socialist system, citizens of the USSR are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly, meetings, street processions and demonstrations.
        Exercise of these political freedoms is ensured by putting public buildings, streets and squares at the disposal of the working people and their organisations, by broad dissemination of information, and by the opportunity to use the press, television, and radio.

        Article 51. In accordance with the aims of building communism, citizens of the USSR have the right to associate in public organisations that promote their political activity and initiative and satisfaction of their various interests.
        Public organisations are guaranteed conditions for successfully performing the functions defined in their rules.

        Article 52. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda. Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited.
        In the USSR, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church.

        Article 53. The family enjoys the protection of the state.
        Marriage is based on the free consent of the woman and the man; the spouses are completely equal in their family relations.
        The state helps the family by providing and developing a broad system of childcare institutions, by organising and improving communal services and public catering, by paying grants on the birth of a child, by providing children's allowances and benefits for large families, and other forms of family allowances and assistance.

        Article 54. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed inviolability of the person. No one may be arrested except by a court decision or on the warrant of a procurator.

        Article 55. Citizens of the USSR are guaranteed inviolability of the home. No one may, without lawful grounds, enter a home against the will of those residing in it.

        Article 56. The privacy of citizens, and of their correspondence, telephone conversations, and telegraphic communications is protected by law.

        Article 57. Respect for the individual and protection of the rights and freedoms of citizens are the duty of all state bodies, public organisations, and officials.
        Citizens of the USSR have the right to protection by the courts against encroachments on their honour and reputation, life and health, and personal freedom and property.

        Article 58. Citizens of the USSR have the right to lodge a complaint against the actions of officials, state bodies and public bodies. Complaints shall be examined according to the procedure and within the time-limit established by law.
        Actions by officials that contravene the law or exceed their powers, and infringe the rights of citizens, may be appealed against in a court in the manner prescribed by law.
        Citizens of the USSR have the right to compensation for damage resulting from unlawful actions by state organisations and public organisations, or by officials in the performance of their duties.

        Article 59. Citizens' exercise of their rights and freedoms is inseparable from the performance of their duties and obligations.
        Citizens of the USSR are obliged to observe the Constitution of the USSR and Soviet laws, comply with the standards of socialist conduct, and uphold the honour and dignity of Soviet citizenship.

        Article 60. It is the duty of, and matter of honour for, every able-bodied citizen of the USSR to work conscientiously in his chosen, socially useful occupation, and strictly to observe labour discipline. Evasion of socially useful work is incompatible with the principles of socialist society.

        Article 61. Citizens of the USSR are obliged to preserve and protect socialist property. It is the duty of a citizen of the USSR to combat misappropriation and squandering of state and socially-owned property and to make thrifty use of the people's wealth.
        Persons encroaching in any way on socialist property shall be punished according to the law.

        Article 62. Citizens of the USSR are obliged to safeguard the interests of the Soviet state, and to enhance its power and prestige.
        Defence of the Socialist Motherland is the sacred duty of every citizen of the USSR.
        Betrayal of the Motherland is the gravest of crimes against the people.

        Article 63. Military service in the ranks of the Armed Forces of the USSR is an honorable duty of Soviet citizens.

        Article 64. It is the duty of every citizen of the USSR to respect the national dignity of other citizens, and to strengthen friendship of the nations and nationalities of the multinational Soviet state.

        Article 65. A citizen of the USSR is obliged to respect the rights and lawful interests of other persons, to be uncompromising toward anti-social behaviour, and to help maintain public order.

        Article 66. Citizens of the USSR are obliged to concern themselves with the upbringing of children, to train them for socially useful work, and to raise them as worthy members of socialist society. Children are obliged to care for their parents and help them.

        Article 67. Citizens of the USSR are obliged to protect nature and conserve its riches.

        Article 68. Concern for the preservation of historical monuments and other cultural values is a duty and obligation of citizens of the USSR.

        Article 69. It is the internationalist duty of citizens of the USSR to promote friendship and co-operation with peoples of other lands and help maintain and strengthen world peace.

Now who could argue with any of that?  Democratic peace, love, and brotherhood, all guaranteed by the beneficent government!

Edited to add bold emphasis.  No doubt it was comforting to Soviet citizens tortured in Lubyanka prison or languishing in the Gulag to know that the government guaranteed all these rights!

[Scarpia]

Under your scheme, labor costs would rise sharply for employers.  What would you do about that?

This scheme was actually tried in France.  That's why they have 100% employment there...no, wait.

[Teresa]

Yes, I read the entire melange. It didn't speak to my heart like you can. Seriously, instead of quoting propaganda, you should make a simple, declarative statement that includes the rationale for saying that only a democracy can support such a regime. The reason I want to know is that I have read all your other pearls, including one that has everyone working at 75% of the time for 100% of the pay and hiring others at full pay to do the same thing, and I am working out how a company will avoid total bankruptcy within a month or two. I am hoping that somehow the democracy thing will ride in to save the day. Seriously, I am.

To make it short and sweet since dictatorships DO NOT offer political, personal and economic freedoms an Economic Bill of Rights would not work under such a regime.

It is true going from a 40 hour workweek to a 30 hour workweek will eat into profits somewhat but it will be nationwide just the same as it was when we went nationwide to a 40 hour workweek, so it would give no business and unfair advantage over another.

Plus all business would save the 6.2% Federal Unemployment Tax since unemployment would be eliminated! 
 

[DavidRoss]

Teresa, maybe you have entirely too much time on your hands and aren't exactly making the best use of it.  Perhaps your energies would be better spent in romance...?  I might have just the guy for you...have you ever met Robert Newman?

[Scarpia]

It is true going from a 40 hour workweek to a 30 hour workweek will eat into profits somewhat but it will be nationwide just the same was when we went nationwide to a 40 hour workweek, so it would give no business and unfair advantage over the other.

Then why didn't going to a 40 hour workweek result in full employment? 

[DavidRoss]

Plus all business would save the 6.2% Federal Unemployment Tax since unemployment would be eliminated! 
 

[Gurn Blanston]

Teresa, maybe you have entirely too much time on your hands and aren't exactly making the best use of it.  Perhaps your energies would be better spent in romance...?  I might have just the guy for you...have you ever met Robert Newman?

David, you're brilliant! Teresa will thank you in the long run too. They're a match made in heaven!

True, Robert is a bit older and probably not quite as fetching as Teresa, but still, kindredness conquers all!


         Robert

Frankly, Teresa, I thought you might have alienated David early on, but now I see I misjudged you both.



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Paul Badura-Skoda - D 625 505 Sonata #11 in f for Pianoforte 4th mvmt - Allegro

[Scarpia]

David, you're brilliant! Teresa will thank you in the long run too. They're a match made in heaven!

True, Robert is a bit older and probably not quite as fetching as Teresa, but still, kindredness conquers all!


         Robert

A match made in heaven, indeed, because I suspect Mr. Newman is unemployed.   

[Teresa]

Teresa's manifesto sounds awfully familiar:
Now who could argue with any of that?  Democratic peace, love, and brotherhood, all guaranteed by the beneficent government!

Edited to add bold emphasis.  No doubt it was comforting to Soviet citizens tortured in Lubyanka prison or languishing in the Gulag to know that the government guaranteed all these rights!

As our forefathers said "internal vigilance" was required to protect our constitution.  The Soviet Union did folllow through on their guarantees of employment, affordable housing, free education and health care.  However they trampled on their constitution in personal and freedom areas.  Especially freedom of religion and freedom from persecution. 

One thing that did not help is when Lenin pretty much crushed the constitution when he said the politburo would make decisions for the working class as they were not intelligent to make decisions for themselves.  So post Lenin the Soviet constitution was all but dead. 

BTW communism is too far to the left for me, but communism would work as a democracy, it has been proven communism does not work as a dictatorship. 

[False_Dmitry]

but communism would work as a democracy.

ROFL!!  Thanks for the laugh!  Perhaps you can tell us more about where Communism is currently working as a "democracy"??   I can't wait for your "answer"!?

[Florestan]

Hmmm, reminds me of a college buddy who (like most of us at that tender age when our idealism has yet to be tempered by experience) was so enamored of Marxist-socialist-progressive ideology that he jumped at the chance to study in Leningrad for six months.  When he returned home the first words out of his mouth were "Communism is an abomination that must be wiped off the face of the earth!"

Amen, brother! But alas!, wiping it off the face of the earth is not the same as wiping it off people's minds. The former task has been almost accomplished, while the latter is much more difficult...

[71 dB]

ROFL!!  Thanks for the laugh!  Perhaps you can tell us more about where Communism is currently working as a "democracy"??   I can't wait for your "answer"!?

Unfortunately we don't have good examples of democratic communism. Sweden in the 70's is the closest we have, I suppose. That doesn't mean it's impossible. It just means the development of society doesn't lead to that easily.

Anyway, I don't want communism. I want humanistic green capitalism.