Legendary Historical Singers

knight66 · April 19, 2011, 01:10:19 PM

Interesting discussion and I think that Harry has pretty much answered the questions that you put to me. I recall reading more than once that a good singing teacher can take a student a very long way with what is nevertheless a very mediocre basic voice.

I bought a recital disc of Florez and I don't think I have managed yet to get all the way through at one sitting. I just don't like the sound of his voice; but he is a considerable musician and technician nevertheless.

I saw him on a couple of the live MET broadcasts. He is charming on stage and very much like his partner in crime each time, Dessay, their stagecraft overcame the actual limitations of the sound of their voices. I am happy to watch and listen to Dessay, but I have a couple of CDs and again, the sound when that is all there is to concentrate on is actually thin and shallow.

I see Vickers is mentioned. There is a singer with an unusual timbre, certainly not sweet. However, he was a really great artist and like Dame Edith Evans in Cleopatra, he could fool you into thinking that you were encountering beauty. He is one of my favourite tenors, but his voice and voice production are unconventional. Conviction, intelligence and stagecraft can take one a long way.

Re the duet with Schipa, it was the second link you provided. I could not get the first one to work.

Mike

Harry Powell · April 19, 2011, 01:43:19 PM

Hi Mike,
In my experience, Dessay's voice has more punch than Florez's in a big theatre. She's a singer who has managed to reinvent herself since her earlier career as "léger". It's doubtful that Flórez will achieve that.

As for comparing poor Juandi with Schipa I think that would be a tough test even for Kraus.

knight66 · April 19, 2011, 01:53:14 PM

Harry, I see Florez has been singing the Duke in Rigoletto. That part can be approached in several ways, but taking it backward into bel-canto is not what middle period Verdi is about. I suspect that he would not be true to the darker aspects of the Duke and perhaps settle for out and out charm. It can be a heavy part depending on how it is sung. I wonder if he will be tempted to take on parts that are too heavy for him.

I felt the young man who sang it in the recently broadcast Domingo version oversang and pushed; it may have been dramatic, but it seemed a dangerous using up of the water in the well.

Mike

Harry Powell · April 19, 2011, 02:47:27 PM

Hi Mike,

Flórez sang the part five or six times and then cancelled his planned performances in Madrid. Now he's returning to it in Zürich (a small venue). I think the problem doesn't lie in his belcanto approach. I indeed think that's the correct one: the Duke is no Manrico (and even Manrico has belcanto features). Alfredo Kraus sang the part in strict belcanto style and I can't name any better Duke than his. Some say Flórez shunned the Duke in Madrid to avoid the comparison (Teatro Real is a "Krausist" stronghold).

What Flórez lacks for Verdi is the robust sound to hold the long "horizontal" phrases. He's very good at hitting small notes while ascending the tessitura, but there aren't any of those flourishes in Verdi. I you are curious, check the Tubes from his Dresden performance. He had to sing in a permanent forte: the feeling of ease that he achieves in Rossini was entirely missing. Although a lyric one, the Duke is no role for a tenorino.

Florestan · April 20, 2011, 12:35:18 AM

Quote from: knight66 on April 19, 2011, 01:10:19 PM
Interesting discussion and I think that Harry has pretty much answered the questions that you put to me. I recall reading more than once that a good singing teacher can take a student a very long way with what is nevertheless a very mediocre basic voice.

Yes, I think that I'll have to agree with that.

Quote
Re the duet with Schipa, it was the second link you provided. I could not get the first one to work.

Can't figure out what's the problem with it. Anyway, here's an alternative one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W2_nZaJAFY

Thank you both for the interesting exchange in the last posts. Very informative.

Florestan · April 20, 2011, 03:30:54 AM

Harry Powell · April 20, 2011, 06:53:36 AM

Fernandi and Poggi had sturdy voices but didn't evolve due to expressive and technical limitations. This was very usual during the 50's. Fernandi also imitated del Monaco a big deal. Picchi had humbler vocal material but was much more stylish (you can listen to his Adorno with Gobbi).

I think the three must have found difficult to handle the Duke's tessitura.

knight66 · April 20, 2011, 12:05:56 PM

Quote from: Harry Powell on April 19, 2011, 02:47:27 PM
Hi Mike,

Flórez sang the part five or six times and then cancelled his planned performances in Madrid. Now he's returning to it in Zürich (a small venue). I think the problem doesn't lie in his belcanto approach. I indeed think that's the correct one: the Duke is no Manrico (and even Manrico has belcanto features). Alfredo Kraus sang the part in strict belcanto style and I can't name any better Duke than his. Some say Flórez shunned the Duke in Madrid to avoid the comparison (Teatro Real is a "Krausist" stronghold).

What Flórez lacks for Verdi is the robust sound to hold the long "horizontal" phrases. He's very good at hitting small notes while ascending the tessitura, but there aren't any of those flourishes in Verdi. I you are curious, check the Tubes from his Dresden performance. He had to sing in a permanent forte: the feeling of ease that he achieves in Rossini was entirely missing. Although a lyric one, the Duke is no role for a tenorino.

Yes, I had forgotten about Kraus and indeed Gedda, both stylish singers. The latter could manage some fairly substantial roles such as Cellini. I think your mining of the older style of performance has reminded me of a style I had all but forgotten. I am used to the much more turbo charged, full-on drama of Rigoletto that is the style now, more driven and loud. Of course, it looks back to Bel canto, 'Caro Nome' I was being thick.

CR, I will have a listen through the singers you link to. I don't know them at all. The idea of someone imitating Del Monaco does not draw me. I always felt he deployed his voice like a weapon and beat the listener into submission.

Mike

Harry Powell · April 20, 2011, 02:03:52 PM

Hi Mike
I forgot about your remark about Grigolo's Duke in the preposterous Domingo broadcast. This is a gifted voice handled by an amateur. He has good intentions and in fact was the only one in the cast to try to offer a true peformance. But his breathing is that of a dilettante and has something of the superficial Sanremo style that has become the standard for tenors. Provided that he's rather successful, I doubt he's concerned with correcting his lacks.

To tell the truth I can't see ant style in current "Rigoletto" performances. The singers just sing (at times) the best they can and one perceives the continuous problems Verdi's writing gives them. I wish I could attend a "Rigoletto" brimming with drama in spite of Belcanto shortcomings. But there isn't a single baritone who can do the role justice!

knight66 · April 20, 2011, 10:58:52 PM

I had read that Hvorostovsky had sung the part with success. I was a bit surprised as temperamentally, I would not have thought him suitable. However, he is one singer who understands legato and does not go all out for volume. He can be inexpressive at times.

The last occasions I saw the opera was in London when Sir Edward Downes certainly produced drama in spades. The Rigoletto was Paolo Gavanelli who I thought good without being memorable. I have not heard him since. Guilda was Anna Netrebko. She was acclaimed at the time, but to my ears had a voice that was too dark for the part and I felt she smudged notes in florid passages.

Long ago when I was a young teen I bought LPs with Renato Capecci and Gianna D'Angelo. Just as some performances can in formative years; it captured me and never since have I heard a Rigoletto I preferred, but it will be 30 years since I last heard him. Looking at Youtube, there he is in the part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBEw5vUGihw

I think he sounds terrific, my memory had not played me false. The right weight of voice, verbal acuity and a round darkness. Gobbi I enjoy, though I don't like his habit of singing from the hard palate. I think I will see if I can find this old set of Capecci on CD.

EDIT: Well very strangely, this seems to be the set, with a reissue release date of the 20th April 2011. So I have pre-ordered it!

Mike

Harry Powell · April 21, 2011, 07:25:33 AM

Hi Mike,

Three years ago I revised every studio recording of "Rigoletto", from the first acoustic recording up to the Chailly set. To tell the truth Capecchi didn't convinced me. The part is too high for his basso cantante voice and he failed to satisty numerous demands of mezzavoce. I also remember he was rather histrionic at times. He was an intelligent singer in other parts. There's a rare recording of Bruscantini (a similar voice) in which he masters the role through a better technique.

Gobbi was a man of imagination, but I dislike his voice. As you are suggesting, he seemed to ignore the right tone shading, what produced pure shouting as soon as he ascended above an E. I think he also adhered to verismo clichés and ended up always performing the same truculent character. He was very interesting at declamatory roles.

The Rigoletto I like best is MacNeil (at least among postwar recordings). I think he reunited the true dramatic voice the part demands with Verdi's belcanto writing. Then I'd mention Warren, Taddei and Stracciari. Still, not even MacNeil equalled the old Danise recording.

I agree with you about Netrebko. This is a incredibly gifted singer who doesn't find her repertory. She insists on singing coloratura roles without having a good coloratura (not to speak about forceful coloratura). She might improve this lack (if she wasn't so lazy) but I think hers is a voice for Mimì, Tatyana and the like. With an intelligent management, she could even arrive to Butterfly. Of Gavanelli I have a low opinion. Hvorostovsky had a beautiful voice which in later years has become too throaty. He was booed at Teatro Real some years ago when performing Posa.

knight66 · April 21, 2011, 08:53:01 AM

All very interesting comments. I wonder what I will make of the set when it arrives? Possibly I won't be able to hear facts flat on with it. I enjoyed the link that I found. I seem to recall d'Angelo as being rather pale and passive as a singer, but again it is many years since I heard her. Tucker is also on the set and is yet another singer about whom I have mixed feelings; too obvious, but with a good basic voice. He could sing legato, but was inclined to chop the line for 'effect'.

Warren was stupendous, though since I got rid of my LPs so long ago, I no longer have any of him, same with Richard Crooks. I agree that Gobbi was terrific in the right part, Falstaff was not one of them and I remain surprised at the praise he garnered in the Karajan recording. Evans had the right kind of voice for Falstaff. Gobbi sounds crapulous and somewhat dangerous, Evans an old chancer with residual charm.

MacNeal, I can't bring his voice to mind, though I have heard him. I need to trawl to see if he was in the sets that come to mind.

Mike

Harry Powell · April 21, 2011, 10:43:45 AM

You might find my blog useful: http://estanochebarralibre.blogspot.com/search/label/Rigoletto?max-results=20
You'll find links to lots of Rigolettos.

You've mentioned two artists of whom I have contrasting opinions. I hold Richard Tucker in high esteem though he had some of the shortcomings you mentioned. A singer capable of enormous excitement. On the other hand, I detest Evans. I keep trying to decipher the language in which he sang. I think he also had even more vocal problems than Gobbi. Falstaff happens to be the only role where Gobbi convinces me, if only for his mastery of the Italian language (I come from a half-Italian familiy). It's true Karajan must be credited with part of the artistic result, though. As the right kind of voice for the fat oldie it's Valdengo who comes to my mind.

knight66 · April 21, 2011, 10:26:56 PM

Ah, we will will just not agree over Evans in Falstaff, I think he does well in it. But I only have him in two other opera sets. He was much admired in the UK for his Mozart. I have a set of Mozart Figaro from the mid 70s conducted rather inflexibly by Baremboim. I saw the cast in Edinburgh and particularly enjoyed Heather Harper. I recently got hold of the discs due to her appearance.

But Evans has a very ordinary rather indistinguishable voice, he pushes at the lines in the Mozart and destroys the arc of the phrasing. It is all about being ingratiating with the audience. The nice, steady, reliable everyman. I remember watching him in a masterclass with young singers, as much about the characterisation side as the singing. All he did was to try to reproduce his way of doing it in the youngsters he was handling. Rather than bringing anything out of them, he pushed his own portrails onto them. I thought it was about as bad a piece of teaching as I had seen.

As to Gobbi, I cannot find any jovial tone in his Falstaff, no twinkle in the eye. I think it is the wrong voice type altogether. I do think he was very effective as Scarpia. He was admired as Posa, but the humanity of the man is missing and he sounds to be a zealot. I do like his Rigoletto for the most part. I will have a look through your blog.

Mike

knight66 · April 21, 2011, 11:26:35 PM

Harry, Your Blog looks to be a terrific resource. I am contemplating trying to put some of it through an internet translator. I have managed to get a couple of links to work, but I think there are problems with my computer. Another prompt to me that I really ought to update the machine. Various functions are failing.

I have however been inspired to order MacNeil in Rigoletto. The Molineli Pradelli set will be winging its way shortly. At present I have the Gobbi/Callas and Levine with Pavarotti and Chernov. This latter I have not enjoyed. On its way to me is the MacNeil and the Capecchi. Should keep me out of trouble for a while.

Mike

Florestan · April 21, 2011, 11:58:02 PM

Quote from: knight66 on April 21, 2011, 11:26:35 PM
Harry, Your Blog looks to be a terrific resource.

Ditto. Thanks for sharing.

I've just bought this:

(actually the incarnation is different, but this is the recording).

What do you think about it? Hit or miss?

Harry Powell · April 22, 2011, 03:56:03 AM

Ciao Signor Conte

That recording has three invaluable assets: the young Callas, Elmo and Tajo. Silveri is quite good. L-V was an old man and of his glorious voice only the high notes remained. You'll notice he arouses much controversy from the public. The sound is pretty poor.

Harry Powell · April 22, 2011, 04:19:08 AM

Quote from: knight66 on April 21, 2011, 11:26:35 PM
Harry, Your Blog looks to be a terrific resource. I am contemplating trying to put some of it through an internet translator. I have managed to get a couple of links to work, but I think there are problems with my computer. Another prompt to me that I really ought to update the machine. Various functions are failing.

I have however been inspired to order MacNeil in Rigoletto. The Molineli Pradelli set will be winging its way shortly. At present I have the Gobbi/Callas and Levine with Pavarotti and Chernov. This latter I have not enjoyed. On its way to me is the MacNeil and the Capecchi. Should keep me out of trouble for a while.

Mike

Hi Mike

The Molinari set sees MacNeil in good condition, but his best performance is on Decca with Sutherland. I have links which must still work in my blog (I tell you so that you don't keep ordering sets!). There are at least four live recordings of his Rigoletto with such splendid Dukes as Bergonzi and Kraus.

I'm not surprised you don't enjoy the Levine. It's a sad account of Pavarotti's decadence.

Florestan · April 22, 2011, 06:22:27 AM

Quote from: Harry Powell on April 22, 2011, 03:56:03 AM
Ciao Signor Conte

That recording has three invaluable assets: the young Callas, Elmo and Tajo. Silveri is quite good. L-V was an old man and of his glorious voice only the high notes remained. You'll notice he arouses much controversy from the public. The sound is pretty poor.

Indeed, I sampled through Disc 1 and it's rather poor, but at 5 Euros can't complain that much.

(I noticed that it sounds somehow better when played through the computer's speakers than through the CD player's ones.)

What Trovatore in decent sound would you recommend?

knight66 · April 22, 2011, 07:02:02 AM

Quote from: Harry Powell on April 22, 2011, 04:19:08 AM
Hi Mike

The Molinari set sees MacNeil in good condition, but his best performance is on Decca with Sutherland. I have links which must still work in my blog (I tell you so that you don't keep ordering sets!). There are at least four live recordings of his Rigoletto with such splendid Dukes as Bergonzi and Kraus.

I'm not surprised you don't enjoy the Levine. It's a sad account of Pavarotti's decadence.

I seem to be having a problem with most 'active' sites. Sometimes it is the speed locally which can be very slow for buffering.

Mike

PS From tomorrow morning I will be away for a week, hope to have plenty to read when I return.