Your Own Classical Evolution

[Philoctetes]

So anybody who shares a different opinion than you do is wrong? There is no right or wrong in music, Luke. It's all subjective, but if I look at Satie objectively, then history tells us of his influence on Les Six and other French composers at that time, but I don't care for his music.

If you enjoy Satie, then that is your right, but not everybody enjoys the same composers. I've heard people say terrible things about Bruckner, Shostakovich, and Berg, but you don't see me throwing a temper tantrum because they said something negative about a composer I enjoy.

That isn't what he said. Perhaps you should read what you said.

[Mirror Image]

That isn't what he said. Perhaps you should read what you said.

No, he didn't come out and say it, but the implication he made from what I read is that if I don't like this work by Satie, then I don't have good taste in music and that I have no idea what I'm talking about as if I'm some ignorant, fly-by-night classical listener.

[Bulldog]

No, he didn't come out and say it, but the implication he made from what I read is that if I don't like this work by Satie, then I don't have good taste in music and that I have no idea what I'm talking about as if I'm some ignorant, fly-by-night classical listener.

Nah, you brought this on yourself - "totally lame" and "terrible". 

[Scarpia]

No, he didn't come out and say it, but the implication he made from what I read is that if I don't like this work by Satie, then I don't have good taste in music and that I have no idea what I'm talking about as if I'm some ignorant, fly-by-night classical listener.

I read no such implication.  As I read it, he said just what he mean't, that it is not necessary to draw the conclusion that Satie is objectively "a terrible composer" because his works don't make a favorable impression on you.

[Mirror Image]

Nah, you brought this on yourself - "totally lame" and "terrible".

You're right I brought this on myself by expressing my opinion, which you guys can't except. 

[Philoctetes]

Nah, you brought this on yourself - "totally lame" and "terrible".

I read no such implication.  As I read it, he said just what he mean't, that it is not necessary to draw the conclusion that Satie is objectively "a terrible composer" because his works don't make a favorable impression on you.

It's really no fun when you simply point out the obvious.

[Philoctetes]

For instance, I dislike Haydn. I just find his shit to be the most boring stuff ever. (Not that I don't give him many listenings, to try and find the combo that will make him click for me), but I would never say he is a terrible composer. I'm arrogant, but not that arrogant.

[Luke]

As Scarpia, Philo, Bulldog said - exactly. You're pulling a similar stunt to the one you did re. composers who offer completions of e.g Mahler 10. There, you said you don't like them (which is cool) and then offered up a pretty defamatory opinion in addition (the idea that completions of Mahler 10 etc are written with bad intentions). And then, being called on that, you spent quite a few posts on your who-me? 'it's all a matter of opinion' line whilst conveniently forgetting the part of what you wrote which causes the actual gripe. As there, so here too. You're still doing it - 'you guys can't except [sic] me expressing my opinion'. No, your taste-as-opinion isn't at issue, don't think that it is; nobody really cares much what others like or don't like. It's the opinions that you present as fact - Satie's terrible; Cooke had bad intentions - that are argued over. It's exactly what Teresa did re Mozart - Mozart is the worst composer ever; Schoenberg was scamming - and you really don't want to get lumped in with her! 

Spelling it out - it's fine not to like Satie (just as it's fine not to like Cooke's Mahler 10 job). No one argues with that, though they might feel sad that you're missing out on some pretty amazing stuff (as I said, or implied, Socrate is surely one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century) But it doesn't follow from your not liking him that Satie is therefore a terrible composer, and you are wrong to make that implication (as you have indeed backtracked on it since, correctly saying that Satie wasn't seen as a terrible composer by many thousands of listeners, musicologists, cultural historians and composers on whom he exterted a strong influence such as Debussy, Ravel, Les Six and many others since, the most prominent being Cage, probably - so perhaps he's not so terrible after all, even if you can't hear what the fuss is about).

[Mirror Image]

As Scarpia, Philo, Bulldog said - exactly. You're pulling a similar stunt to the one you did re. composers who offer completions of e.g Mahler 10. There, you said you don't like them (which is cool) and then offered up a pretty defamatory opinion in addition (the idea that completions of Mahler 10 etc are written with bad intentions). And then, being called on that, you spent quite a few posts on your who-me? 'it's all a matter of opinion' line whilst conveniently forgetting the part of what you wrote which causes the actual gripe. As there, so here too. You're still doing it - 'you guys can't except [sic] me expressing my opinion'. No, your taste-as-opinion isn't at issue, don't think that it is; nobody really cares much what others like or don't like. It's the opinions that you present as fact - Satie's terrible; Cooke had bad intentions - that are argued over. It's exactly what Teresa did re Mozart - Mozart is the worst composer ever; Schoenberg was scamming - and you really don't want to get lumped in with her! 

Spelling it out - it's fine not to like Satie (just as it's fine not to like Cooke's Mahler 10 job). No one argues with that, though they might feel sad that you're missing out on some pretty amazing stuff (as I said, or implied, Socrate is surely one of the great masterpieces of the 20th century) But it doesn't follow from your not liking him that Satie is therefore a terrible composer, and you are wrong to make that implication (as you have indeed backtracked on it since, correctly saying that Satie wasn't seen as a terrible composer by many thousands of listeners, musicologists, cultural historians and composers on whom he exterted a strong influence such as Debussy, Ravel, Les Six and many others since, the most prominent being Cage, probably - so perhaps he's not so terrible after all, even if you can't hear what the fuss is about).

Maybe calling Satie a terrible composer was a poor choice of words and a hasty judgement to make. How about this: I dislike Satie's music but understand his influence on other composers in Paris during his lifetime? I think this is a more logical point-of-view and nobody gets hurt in the process.

[Philoctetes]

Maybe calling Satie a terrible composer was a poor choice of words and a hasty judgement to make. How about this: I dislike Satie's music but understand his influence on other composers in Paris during his lifetime? I think this is more logical and nobody gets hurt in the process.

No one got hurt.

And perhaps you should think twice and post once.

[Scarpia]

Maybe calling Satie a terrible composer was a poor choice of words and a hasty judgement to make. How about this: I dislike Satie's music but understand his influence on other composers in Paris during his lifetime? I think this is more logical and nobody gets hurt in the process.

Who could argue with that?

[Mirror Image]

No one got hurt.

And perhaps you should think twice and post once.

And perhaps you should learn to accept that not everybody likes Satie's music even if you feel that deep down inside that they're missing out on something.

I'm not a terrible person because I dislike his music. Do you know how many people hate the Second Viennese School of Music? More than you can count. This doesn't stop me though from enjoying their music as my opinion should never make any difference to you how you feel about Satie.

We all love classical music here and that is what's important.

[Philoctetes]

And perhaps you should learn to accept that not everybody likes Satie's music even if you feel that deep down inside that they're missing out on something.

I'm not a terrible person because I dislike his music. Do you know how many people hate the Second Viennese School of Music? More than you can count. This doesn't stop me though from enjoying their music as my opinion should never make any difference to you how you feel about Satie.

We all love classical music here and that is what's important.

What exactly are you responding too? Perhaps you should reread my post, and then read the posts it was a response too, and then read my post again.

I mean, fuck, seriously.

[Mirror Image]

What exactly are you responding too? Perhaps you should reread my post, and then read the posts it was a response too, and then read my post again.

I mean, fuck, seriously.

I am actually responding to this post you made earlier:

My first favorite compose was Satie, and even now, he's still my favorite. It's fun, short music. I say, if you can't dig him, watch out.

Now, what exactly should I "watch out" for?

[Mirror Image]

What's the matter cat got your tongue?

[Philoctetes]

I am actually responding to this post you made earlier:
 
Now, what exactly should I "watch out" for?

Then you should have made that clear.

And that sentence, from which 'watch out' was plucked, was left hopelessly ambiguous, simply as a device. Hopefully, you'd watch out for new, fresh, and exciting recordings.

What did you take it to mean?

[Mirror Image]

Then you should have made that clear.

And that sentence, from which 'watch out' was plucked, was left hopelessly ambiguous, simply as a device. Hopefully, you'd watch out for new, fresh, and exciting recordings.

What did you take it to mean?

You need to make yourself clear too. I took watch out to mean that you were going to get nasty with anybody who couldn't "dig" Satie.

[AndyD.]

Perhaps you're not into the atonal composers, but you obviously relish in dissonance since you enjoy Bartok so much. Bartok's SQs are incredibly dissonant works. I think it's all a matter of how open you are.

My dislike for Satie stems from listening to his music and just being disappointed. It didn't strike me as original or creative. These are my opinions of course and everybody has right to voice their own opinion.

I agree, music is there for everyone.

Maybe I should have written that I don't like alot of tone row and serial composition.

And we all like dissonance. Without it there's no consonance, right? Just being a smart alec. Most people that are into the extreme end of heavy metal are into dissonant compositions. Slayer is a good example.

[vandermolen]

Oh, I didn't realise that I was posting into the middle of the Battle of the Somme! Anyway, opera has always been a bit of a blind spot for me, although I love Boris Godunov, and 'Riders to the Sea' and 'Pilgrim's Progress' by Vaughan Williams.  In recent years I have come to appreciate chamber music more than before - although what I listen to is still predominantly orchestral. As for Satie ( ) I do like the Gymnopedies 1-3 (either in piano or orchestral garb) but am not so keen on his other music.

[Sergeant Rock]

Oh, I didn't realise that I was posting into the middle of the Battle of the Somme!

Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to Route 9 and Khe Sanh

As for Satie ( ) I do like the Gymnopedies 1-3 (either in piano or orchestral garb) but am not so keen on his other music.

I'm listening to the orchestrations right now. Lovely stuff...I'm surprised MI can't enjoy this. And I think Parade would be right up his alley. Oh well...  Me, I love Satie; own three box sets plus dozens of individual discs.

Sarge