Your Own Classical Evolution

[Philoctetes]

You play on the man, Philoctetes. You don't use any arguments. You're just frustrated. Calling me a christ? On what grounds?

Henk

You misunderstand. I'm simply not as nice as the other posters in this thread. Call it tough love. I also don't think one should placate people who are either completely ignorant and/or stupid, or are simply acting as trolls.

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually you weren't describing 'free' jazz at all. You were just explaining your delusion of it.


You wouldn't irritate people if you weren't so fucktarded. I'm actually missing Teresa. I mean she was fucking retarded, but she at least had some thought.

Let's not push it too hard, Philo. Teresa did NOT have any thought. Also, it is prohibited to call people fucktards. Please don't do it any more else I will have to whack you, and I don't feel like it right now. Kindly be self-moderating.

[Henk]

It's not neccessarily that you're being irritating, Henk. It's just...there are so few accomplished musicians that would agree with the points you're making. Improvisation in jazz, by experienced players, is just as musically valid as any other music. Without it, music overall wouldn't have been the same today. The great musicians, like Marsalis, Davis, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and so many others are brilliant on a level that's so far beyond the average person...

I again can't help but wonder whether you're just speculating/playing the devil's advocate.


I'm flabbergasted now. Speechless.

Well I heard it from a classical trained musician, and then I started to think about it in fact. Many classical trained musicians would confirm it I think.

I don't say these jazz musicians aren't talented. They are.

[Philoctetes]

Let's not push it too hard, Philo. Teresa did NOT have any thought. Also, it is prohibited to call people fucktards. Please don't do it any more else I will have to whack you, and I don't feel like it right now. Kindly be self-moderating.

Well I'll disagree with you on Teresa, she was a bit of a kook, but her posts always seemed planned out, and she did know about the music she enjoyed.

Self-moderating begun.

[Scarpia]

. The great musicians, like Marsalis, Davis, Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, and so many others are brilliant on a level that's so far beyond the average person...

If you are talking about great improvisers, you can add Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.   

[Scarpia]

Well I heard it from a classical trained musician, and then I started to think about it in fact. Many classical trained musicians would confirm it I think.

Many classically trained musicians would also say the opposite.   And since classically trained musicians do not necessarily have any experience, training or skill in improvisation, it is not clear that their views would be more informed than the average web site poseur anyway.

[DavidW]

If you are talking about great improvisers, you can add Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.   

In the biography I read I learned that some of Bach's well known improv moments were actually previously scored, memorized and rehearsed performances!!   Clever devil...

[Henk]

You misunderstand. I'm simply not as nice as the other posters in this thread. Call it tough love. I also don't think one should placate people who are either completely ignorant and/or stupid, or are simply acting as trolls.

I don't expect people to be nice. But it might be better if I avoid confrontations with people like you. I wonder what you think gives you authority to bring in things like this in our, let's say, battle. Not your own reason-ability I suspect.

[Scarpia]

In the biography I read I learned that some of Bach's well known improv moments were actually previously scored, memorized and rehearsed performances!!   Clever devil...

That may be so, I don't really know.  But for the musical offering, Bach was given the theme on the spot, or so I have read (he improvised a 3 voice fugue, the 6 voice fugue was written out later).

[AndyD.]

Well I heard it from a classical trained musician, and then I started to think about it in fact. Many classical trained musicians would confirm it I think.

I don't say these jazz musicians aren't talented. They are.

All respect, but may I have a name? Has this person released any performances with worldwide distribution?

[Scarpia]

All respect, but may I have a name? Has this person released any performances with worldwide distribution?

Must have been Boulez. dork!   

[AndyD.]

If you are talking about great improvisers, you can add Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.   

Absolutely.

Must have been Boulez. dork!   

I resemble that remark.

[Josquin des Prez]

Jazz musicians like Mengelberg use their instrument, a piano, as a table. He just puts his cup of coffee on it. Willem Breuker almost blows up the bargel organ, steam coming out of it and he thinks it's fun. That's exemplifying for all jazz musicians.

No, this is exemplifying of Jazz music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DadXI5R7Td4

Complex enough for you?

Performers (not composers) of classical music have a much more deeper, stranger maybe, relation, as I can imagine, with their instrument. They can love it, but they also can hate it.

Classical music allows for a much wider range of non-musicians to excel and achieve fame based solely on training and technique. Jazz music is a lot less forgiving for those without real musical talent. So while of course greatness is relative to the individual more then the type of music one chooses to play, Jazz musicians who do not posses real insight into the music do not get far, while classical musicians of dubious musical ability can achieve fame and commercial success despite the insipidness of their music making. Ever wondered why for instance there are so few female Jazz musicians of real stature?

In the days of Tatum and Coltrane jazz was quite popular and improvising cool. It's not surprising that Tatum and Coltrane were always busy with making music. It was their talent and it was rewarding. 

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you suggesting that Tatum and Coltrane played only because it was popular, and had no deeper relationship to the music as artists? Are you really that deluded?

But how can improvising in jazz be so intuitive?

Sometimes it isn't intuitive at all. It depends on the musician. I think a lot of the music of Keith Jarret for instance is really artificial. As to how they do it, who knows? Because some of them are great musicians? How did Bach improvise the giant three part ricercare from the Musical Offerings? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw2IKi2rGlY

It seems impossible, but hey, its Bach. We are supposed to gape in awe. Same with Coltrane and the other great of Jazz.

I think it's because jazz musicians apply schemes. They just play some combinations of notes and if it sounds nice, they memorize them and apply them. That could possibly be the trick that demystifies the intuitiveness of improvising by jazz musicians. The rhythm does the rest or rather the rhythm makes it sound like music. That's possibly why they like their own playing and get technical very skilled. I've tried to play some jazz myself and that was what made it attractive to me.

Of course they use techniques in their music, much like Bach used contrapuntal techniques to improvise his fugues. You don't think you can just practice scales and chords until you can just hack your way into producing music out of thin air, do you? You have to learn techniques, styles, form your own habits, and so forth. This does not mean however that Jazz improvisation is easy. If that was the case, why doesn't everybody sound like the great? You have guys like Quinichette who spend most of his career emulating Lester Young to the point he could imitate the style of the latter to perfection, and yet he still wasn't anywhere near as great as his idol. It takes real musicianship to be a great Jazz improviser. The reason why modern Jazz musicians focus so much on technique this days, as you say, its because most of them aren't really that great. It took real genius to play the way Coltrane played.

[Scarpia]

Absolutely.
I resemble that remark.

I assumed you'd get that Boulez was the dork, not you!

[Mirror Image]

I think we should all stop fueling the fire. It's obviously Henk doesn't like jazz music or understand the logic behind it.

He'll continue to spew out one ridiculous statement after another and there's no reasoning with him. You might as well be talking to a....

[AndyD.]

I assumed you'd get that Boulez was the dork, not you!

But I like being a dork  .

[Scarpia]

But I like being a dork  .

Ok, dorkster!

[Mirror Image]

But I like being a dork  .

Me too, but I think nerd is more appropriate. 

[Brahmsian]

Me too, but I think nerd is more appropriate. 

How about nork?

[Bulldog]

I don't expect people to be nice. But it might be better if I avoid confrontations with people like you.

If you continue making idiotic statements, many confrontations are ahead of you.