What's the point of listening to so much music?

[Saul]

I am bewildered when I read on this board of people undertaking to "compare" all recordings of a piece.

Great Point.

[Scarpia]

Great Point.

I didn't make a point, I said I was bewildered.   

[Saul]

I didn't make a point, I said I was bewildered.   

Well it was a point anyways.

[Brian]

Sforzando, thank you. That was one of the best, most interesting posts I've ever read here and I might save it to my computer. If you have any more theories, please do fire away! ~ I have one addition to your post, however. I think the expansion of the musical world, and the geographical compartmentalization of the composition process via residencies and academic posts, makes it very difficult for new music to spread quickly through the world, the way it may have in the 1800s. For example, if Beethoven wrote a new symphony, he knew that in order to get most dedicated orchestras, listeners, and critics to hear it, the symphony had to be played in only a few places - say (this is not exhaustive by any means), Vienna, Berlin, Paris, London, and a few more German cities. If Beethoven were around today, his new symphony might be commissioned by the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, then spread around the world by a single conductor who "advocated" it, or by the orchestra going on a tour, after which if he was lucky it would be recorded by Naxos.

Partly this is due to the narrow space allotted to contemporary music in orchestral repertoire, partly it's due to the huge number of active composers clamoring for attention, but partly it is because of the increase in size of the musical world. For example, the composer Avner Dorman is one who interests me. But he is Composer in Residence for the Alabama Symphony Orchestra, which means that about 50% of his new works are premiered by the Alabama SO in Birmingham, and about half of these are currently not scheduled by any other ensemble. If the world today was as small as it was in Beethoven's time, he'd be in Paris rather than central Alabama and I could take the Eurostar to see the premiere. But now the classical music scene is so big that even really successful pieces take a long time to "spread."

[karlhenning]

. . . For example, the composer Avner Dorman is one who interests me. But he is Composer in Residence for the Alabama Symphony Orchestra, which means that about 50% of his new works are premiered by the Alabama SO in Birmingham, and about half of these are currently not scheduled by any other ensemble.

I see a glass half full: about half of his new works which the Alabama SO are playing will get other performances in other venues, too.

[Brian]

I see a glass half full: about half of his new works which the Alabama SO are playing will get other performances in other venues, too.

And moreover, if we were in Alabama, we'd have exciting premieres to look forward to - which is a totally new thing!

[Saul]

Sforzando, thank you. That was one of the best, most interesting posts I've ever read here and I might save it to my computer. If you have any more theories, please do fire away! ~ I have one addition to your post, however. I think the expansion of the musical world, and the geographical compartmentalization of the composition process via residencies and academic posts, makes it very difficult for new music to spread quickly through the world, the way it may have in the 1800s. For example, if Beethoven wrote a new symphony, he knew that in order to get most dedicated orchestras, listeners, and critics to hear it, the symphony had to be played in only a few places - say (this is not exhaustive by any means), Vienna, Berlin, Paris, London, and a few more German cities. If Beethoven were around today, his new symphony might be commissioned by the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, then spread around the world by a single conductor who "advocated" it, or by the orchestra going on a tour, after which if he was lucky it would be recorded by Naxos.

Partly this is due to the narrow space allotted to contemporary music in orchestral repertoire, partly it's due to the huge number of active composers clamoring for attention, but partly it is because of the increase in size of the musical world. For example, the composer Avner Dorman is one who interests me. But he is Composer in Residence for the Alabama Symphony Orchestra, which means that about 50% of his new works are premiered by the Alabama SO in Birmingham, and about half of these are currently not scheduled by any other ensemble. If the world today was as small as it was in Beethoven's time, he'd be in Paris rather than central Alabama and I could take the Eurostar to see the premiere. But now the classical music scene is so big that even really successful pieces take a long time to "spread."

Also an important and valid point.

[Bulldog]

I am bewildered when I read on this board of people undertaking to "compare" all recordings of a piece.  They seem to have persuaded themselves that they are doing some sort of research, rather than listening to the stereo. 

Maybe I can remove some of your bewildered feelings about the subject.  It's been a few years since I did any relatively comprehensive reviews, but I well remember why I did them - pure enjoyment. 

[Cato]

"Waiting patiently"... still!

What's the name of the place that people say "freezes over" before something else happens?   

[Philoctetes]

"Waiting patiently"... still!

What's the name of the place that people say "freezes over" before something else happens?   

You'll be waiting forever. Trolls merely like to "bait".

[karlhenning]

Maybe I can remove some of your bewildered feelings about the subject.  It's been a few years since I did any relatively comprehensive reviews, but I well remember why I did them - pure enjoyment. 

Testify, Don! It is one mode of enjoying the music.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Sforzando, thank you. That was one of the best, most interesting posts I've ever read here and I might save it to my computer. If you have any more theories, please do fire away! ~ I have one addition to your post, however. I think the expansion of the musical world, and the geographical compartmentalization of the composition process via residencies and academic posts, makes it very difficult for new music to spread quickly through the world, the way it may have in the 1800s. For example, if Beethoven wrote a new symphony, he knew that in order to get most dedicated orchestras, listeners, and critics to hear it, the symphony had to be played in only a few places - say (this is not exhaustive by any means), Vienna, Berlin, Paris, London, and a few more German cities. If Beethoven were around today, his new symphony might be commissioned by the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra, then spread around the world by a single conductor who "advocated" it, or by the orchestra going on a tour, after which if he was lucky it would be recorded by Naxos.

Partly this is due to the narrow space allotted to contemporary music in orchestral repertoire, partly it's due to the huge number of active composers clamoring for attention, but partly it is because of the increase in size of the musical world. For example, the composer Avner Dorman is one who interests me. But he is Composer in Residence for the Alabama Symphony Orchestra, which means that about 50% of his new works are premiered by the Alabama SO in Birmingham, and about half of these are currently not scheduled by any other ensemble. If the world today was as small as it was in Beethoven's time, he'd be in Paris rather than central Alabama and I could take the Eurostar to see the premiere. But now the classical music scene is so big that even really successful pieces take a long time to "spread."

Thank you, Brian, for those very kind thoughts. For better or worse, I am full of theories, but regarding your "one addition," I think if anything the opposite is more truly the case. I do not know any music by Avner Dorman, but thanks to modern technology, in five minutes I can find a website and click into a video recording of some of his music. Compare Bach having to walk on foot some 200 miles to meet and hear Buxtehude in 1705, or Berlioz as a conductor trudging all over Europe to drum up awareness of his music, almost literally killing himself in the process.

What I think you're talking about, however (and correct me if I've misread you), is the fierce competition by composers for scarce performing resources. There are lots of composers today, all wanting to get their work heard, but performing organizations fearful of not getting warm bodies into seats are often unwilling to take chances on music that isn't tried and true. This is the paradox: every one and his uncle claims they are saturated with Beethoven, yet program something other than Beethoven and the house is half empty.

The musical world may have been smaller in Beethoven's time, but that also means that huge percentages of the world's population never had access to his music. No question that the advent and maturation of recording have done a lot to ameliorate this deficiency. We may complain that the overwhelming majority of people don't care about classical music, but at least the opportunity to buy CDs of Beethoven or hear YouTube clips by Avner Dorman is at all our fingertips.

[karlhenning]

. . . What I think you're talking about, however (and correct me if I've misread you), is the fierce competition by composers for scarce performing resources. There are lots of composers today, all wanting to get their work heard, but performing organizations fearful of not getting warm bodies into seats are often unwilling to take chances on music that isn't tried and true. This is the paradox: every one and his uncle claims they are saturated with Beethoven, yet program something other than Beethoven and the house is half empty.

I still think this is largely a matter of inertia. Inertia w/r/t the situation itself, and mental inertia w/r/t the Boards/Programming Directors.

Levine has been very creative in finding a middle ground between an unflagging commitment to new music, and the perceived need for Safety First in programming.  The '10-'11 season at symphony is the first of two seasons over which the BSO will play the six symphonies of John Harbison (the sixth is a commission). Granted, Harbison is not Carter or Wuorinen, and is a local favorite; but it's both new music, and a set of six concerts over two seasons.  And there's a Birtwistle commission coming on line this season, too, for instance.

Levine already paid the Beethoven dues, with his complete symphony cycle last season. This season, LvB is relatively scarce (the Vn Cto, and two of the Pf Cti).  In one program, Beethoven has been swapped for Mozart as the "classical foil" to Schoenberg.

[The new erato]

When your light is on the blink
You never think of worrying
What's the use of worrying?
When your bus has left the stop
You'd better drop your hurrying
What's the use of hurrying?

Leave me alone mrs vandebilt
I've got plenty of time of my own

What's the use of worrying?
What's the use of hurrying?
What's the use of anything?

Ho Hey Ho...

What's the use of worrying?
What's the use of hurrying?
What's the use of anything?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I still think this is largely a matter of inertia. Inertia w/r/t the situation itself, and mental inertia w/r/t the Boards/Programming Directors.

Levine has been very creative in finding a middle ground between an unflagging commitment to new music, and the perceived need for Safety First in programming.  The '10-'11 season at symphony is the first of two seasons over which the BSO will play the six symphonies of John Harbison (the sixth is a commission). Granted, Harbison is not Carter or Wuorinen, and is a local favorite; but it's both new music, and a set of six concerts over two seasons.  And there's a Birtwistle commission coming on line this season, too, for instance.

Levine already paid the Beethoven dues, with his complete symphony cycle last season. This season, LvB is relatively scarce (the Vn Cto, and two of the Pf Cti).  In one program, Beethoven has been swapped for Mozart as the "classical foil" to Schoenberg.

I'm sure there's a lot of truth to that. For all the conservatism, a lot of modern music does get heard, even here in New York. The Phil just did a marvelous program consisting of Debussy's Faune, the Sibelius VC (Joshua Bell, still looking as if he's 16), and Magnus Lindberg's very modern Kraft, which made impressive use of percussion instruments found in local junkyards and antiphonal effects. I doubt all the audience loved it, but those who did expressed their appreciation vociferously.

[DavidW]

I wonder how much it matters if the bso or the nypo program modern music since those concert goers in major cities are a very small fraction of the entire classical audience.  You get significant airtime for modern music on NPR and BBC, and then there is something to write about.

[Chaszz]

Okay, devil's advocate time: Classical artists who play other people's music--that is, the overwhelming majority of classical performers--may play exactly the same notes, but never the same way.  Any number of factors go into making a performance (recorded or live) different: the exact tempo; whether the beat is steady or flexible; dynamic range; accents strong or muted; vocal or instrumental tone; the room itself... Even Stravinsky's multiple recordings of some of his own music show some major differences between them.  And the greater the performers, the more their work differs.

Well, I did overstate my case. I'm not such a philistine as to think the conductor makes no difference. But once I've found what I consider a good interpretation, I'm not too interested in alternatives. Especially since as I said, I generally listen to works I really like very intensively for awhile and sort of wear them out.  Now I like Thielemann's Wagner and consider him the first really great Wagner conductor in a while, based on what I've heard on Bayreuth web broadcasts. But I've not bought anything by him and would consider a praised new cover version of Tumbling Dice a more necessary purchase.

But to each his own..... 

[Chaszz]

Perhaps the interpreter of music is something like the expert who photographs a great painting for reproduction. With great artists who use free brushwork as a an expressive medium, like Rembrandt and the later Titian, there is a lot of variation in photography possible and much better and worse outcomes. But if one cannot own the painting and wants to hang a reproduction, when one has found a pretty good one his quest may cease. 

There is a book which has a series of reproductions by great artists copying earlier great artists' works for knowledge, practice and love. Some almost exact copies and some freer ones. This is also perhaps analogous to music interpretation. It's a fascinating book, called Art Themes and Variations, unfortunately I believe out of print. I saw it many years ago, wished for it many times after that, and luckily came across and bought a used copy on the internet two years ago.   

[knight66]

I am surprised no one has picked up on this issue of Saul happening to repeatedly alight initially on the best versions of pieces. It strikes me that he is hearing it done one way, then assuming this is the right way. As a kid I had a disc of Sir Eugene Goosens in some Berlioz, I loved it and thought that no performance I subsequently heard came up to that level of excitement. I heard it again recently; there was nothing special about it. It was the excitement of getting to know the piece that imprinted that thought in my mind.

The impression is that Saul does not learn more from the pieces or take more away from them than the first performer has to offer. Had I done this with say Mehta's Aida, I would be pretty clueless as to just what can be made of the piece.

Secondly, he sets up one of his straw men, positing the idea that many people generally sit endlessly comparing multiple versions of a piece. Even the hard core here rarely hold more than a few versions of anything, though there are exceptions for perhaps one or two favoured pieces. Additionally, there have been several through the site who do get hold of every version of something, but they often don't even break into the packaging. That is about collecting, not about listening to music.

Mike

[Saul]

I am surprised no one has picked up on this issue of Saul happening to repeatedly alight initially on the best versions of pieces. It strikes me that he is hearing it done one way, then assuming this is the right way. As a kid I had a disc of Sir Eugene Goosens in some Berlioz, I loved it and thought that no performance I subsequently heard came up to that level of excitement. I heard it again recently; there was nothing special about it. It was the excitement of getting to know the piece that imprinted that thought in my mind.

The impression is that Saul does not learn more from the pieces or take more away from them than the first performer has to offer. Had I done this with say Mehta's Aida, I would be pretty clueless as to just what can be made of the piece.

Secondly, he sets up one of his straw men, positing the idea that many people generally sit endlessly comparing multiple versions of a piece. Even the hard core here rarely hold more than a few versions of anything, though there are exceptions for perhaps one or two favoured pieces. Additionally, there have been several through the site who do get hold of every version of something, but they often don't even break into the packaging. That is about collecting, not about listening to music.

Mike

Well the first impression is a factor, but I did happen to have really good musicians performing these works by various composers at my first listening to them, I guess I was lucky to get it right the first time.
But if one really thinks about it deeply and objectively, the differences of performances are not that great, and a good number of these differences are things that people dream up, insisting that these differences are primal, and I say they are marginal, most works that were recorded by well educated talented virtuosos, are the same with minor adjustments as I said before.

Best of Wishes,

Saul