Language Learners

[madaboutmahler]

Nice idea!

I love languages and enjoy learning them.

My native language is Mahlerian English. At the moment, I am learning both French and Italian at school. I started both of these languages in my first year at secondary school, so when I was 11 I think. It is compulsory to take at least one language for GCSE at our school, but as I love both languages so much, I decided to take both, and am enjoying both very much, and fortunately my results seem to be rather good. In all my recent mock exams I have been getting A*, so I am very happy!

I love both languages and hope to continue them into A Level too, and hopefully visit France and Italy regularly. (whether to conduct their orchestras, or admire the beautiful culture/landscapes etc)

I would also love to learn many more languages to a decent level, as you know, it is my ambition to be a conductor (As well as composer), so I don't want to just stand in front of a foreign orchestra and ask 'who speaks English here?'

[Karl Henning]

My native language is Mahlerian english.

Ah, but in English we capitalize languages, I've heard, as well as Mahler's name : )

[madaboutmahler]

Ah, but in English we capitalize languages, I've heard, as well as Mahler's name : )

Very true, Karl! I must have slipped into Mahlerian there...

[Lisztianwagner]

My native language is Italian.
I really love learning foreign languages; I've studied English at school since I was 5 years old, and I also learnt some French, Spanish and Dutch (French and Spanish by myself, Dutch when I went to Holland for a school trip).
Now I'm learning German, which I've studied for a year; to do this, I mainly use grammar books and old handbooks of conversation, but I also watch documentaries in German (especially about composers and conductors) and read Wagner's essaies and libretti. Having learnt Latin at the high school has been helping me a lot, because German language has declensions as well.
I have no idea about how much they are used nowadays, but I got to know Gothic characters too.
I started studying it because I've always adored Austria and Germany, their culture, their history and especially their music; and moreover, I hope to live in Vienna one day.

[springrite]

My native language is Chinese. Obviously, my second language is English. I can read a bit of Italian, French, German, mostly due to opera and classical music (with the booklets usually in multiple languages!), and can understand and speak some Spanish having lived in Los Angeles for 22 years.

Now I am thinking about learning a bit more of one of those languages. the reason is because my soon to be four year old daughter Kimi speaks Chinese and English equally well. It's nice she has two mother tongues. I want to give her a "foreign language". No other languages are taught in Chinese schools (when she starts in 2 1/2 years). Spanish is the most nature since I already know some. But I wonder which one would be a possibly better choice? French?

Now Kimi can count in Spanish, and speak a little bit of "speedy Gonzales". She seems to like French and German better since both she has picked up a bit simply by using the wrong language button on DVDs. Her diction for German seems to be the best. Her Spanish simply sounds like "speedy Gonzales"!

[rhomboid]

My language is Spanish. I'm starting to memorize basic vocabulary in German and French (through brute force of repetition), languages which I consider pillars of cultural banks.

[mc ukrneal]

My native language is Chinese.

Now I am thinking about learning a bit more of one of those languages. the reason is because my soon to be four year old daughter Kimi speaks Chinese and English equally well.

I have always been a bit confused by this, so perhaps you could help. I always thought there was no 'Chinese' language per se and that there were several languages spoken in China - Mandorin, Cantonese, etc. Now I understand that the great majority speak Manodrin. And I assume that when you say 'Chinese' you mean Mandarin? Or is this understanding incorrect and is there a genearlly accepted Chinese language that is now spoken by everyone (which I would assume is Mandorin or something based on it)? Are the other languages (or is dialects more appropriate?) dying out?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Possibly of interest - our already existing language thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17367.0.html

[Coco]

Huh, I searched for that thread and it didn't come up. Perhaps a mod could merge this with that thread?

[Coco]

Thanks!

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks!

My pleasure. Interesting to see what progress has been made by some of the people who posted here earlier.

[Karl Henning]

. . . Manodrin.

No longer availabe without a prescription.

[Gurn Blanston]

I have always been a bit confused by this, so perhaps you could help. I always thought there was no 'Chinese' language per se and that there were several languages spoken in China - Mandorin, Cantonese, etc. Now I understand that the great majority speak Manodrin. And I assume that when you say 'Chinese' you mean Mandarin? Or is this understanding incorrect and is there a genearlly accepted Chinese language that is now spoken by everyone (which I would assume is Mandorin or something based on it)? Are the other languages (or is dialects more appropriate?) dying out?

I know many Chinese; nearly to a person, they know Mandarin, but they speak Cantonese. I don't know how universal this is, I would hate to generalize...

[Karl Henning]

http://www.youtube.com/v/jL8hV-zjJ_4

[springrite]

I have always been a bit confused by this, so perhaps you could help. I always thought there was no 'Chinese' language per se and that there were several languages spoken in China - Mandorin, Cantonese, etc. Now I understand that the great majority speak Manodrin. And I assume that when you say 'Chinese' you mean Mandarin? Or is this understanding incorrect and is there a genearlly accepted Chinese language that is now spoken by everyone (which I would assume is Mandorin or something based on it)? Are the other languages (or is dialects more appropriate?) dying out?

If I may confuse the matter even more while attempting to clear things up, here it goes:

First of all, Cantonese is a dialect spoken only in most parts of one of the 30 provinces. The only reason that Westerners think most Chinese speak it is because the British owned HK for over a century, and they speak Cantonese there, and most of the first group of Chinese immigrants were from that area. Otherwise, we are talking about a dialect spoken in ONE of the 30 provinces ONLY.

Secondly, yes, most Chinese people can communicate within the same dialect, which we call "standard Chinese", or Putonghua. In the west, it is called Mandarin, which is a rediculous mistake that it is now too late to correct so we continue to use the term because Westerners insist on it. You see, the Manchus were in power when The West first went into China (not counting Marco Polo, of course). The Manchus accounts for roughly 2 percent of the population, if that much. They had their own language, which should be called Mandarin. The other 98% of the population speak some form of Chinese. The real Mandarin is NOT even Chinese. It is a totally different language. But since the Manchus were in power in China, westerners mistakenly used the word "Mandarin" to mean things that are "officially Chinese". At the time, what is "officially Chinese" happens to be this "standard Chinese", which the Westerners begin to call Mandarin. The fact is, the Manchus decided that the only way they could rule China long term is to become more Chinese. So they more or less gave up their own lauguage and much of their culture in order to solidify political rule. Since the middle of the 20th century, the actually Mandarin lauguage is officially a dead language, with hardly even a scholar left who could read or speak it. But the term "Mandarin" is strangely still alive, used by Westerner to mean "Chinese".

The reason all dialects are considered still some form of Chinese instead of different languages is partly because of political and culture reasons, as Margaret Mead pointed out that "language is dialect with a political border", but also because in whatever dialect, the written form is the same. For the most part, only the pronounciation is different, and the preferred words for certain expressions are different. (Not much different from STOP in North America but HALT in the UK). You can't say that about Italian and Spanish, Dutch and German, for instance, even though they can be very similar.

Since in both China and Taiwan, the schools are taught in "Mandarin", basically every person under the age 80 can communicate in "Mandarin" with minimal difficulty. They may speak a different dialect at home, but at school and at work, most people do sound alike and communication has never been an issue.

In the 80's and early 90's, there was a surge in Chinese people learning to speak Cantonese. That is because HK is a powerful economic power and most people there speak only Cantonese but not "Mandarin". From someone in China,being able to speak Cantonese gives one added advantages in terms of career opportunities and money making possibilities. But after 2000, it has turned the other way. People in HK are learning to speak "Mandarin" and all business or other communications are done in "Mandarin" because China is now the more powerful entity, and being able to speak "Mandarin" gives those in HK more opportunities.

You have to go to a very very remote village to find people under the age of 80 who is unable to communicate in "Mandarin". I still detest using the term Mandarin to mean Chinese. It is like somehow people from Poland has to call their language German because everyone else is calling it that.

[Coco]

Very enlightening post, Paul. As I learn more, it is astounding to me the sheer variety of who and what is corralled under the heading "Chinese".

[Karl Henning]

If I may confuse the matter even more while attempting to clear things up, here it goes:

First of all, Cantonese is a dialect spoken only in most parts of one of the 30 provinces. The only reason that Westerners think most Chinese speak it is because the British owned HK for over a century, and they speak Cantonese there, and most of the first group of Chinese immigrants were from that area. Otherwise, we are talking about a dialect spoken in ONE of the 30 provinces ONLY.

Secondly, yes, most Chinese people can communicate within the same dialect, which we call "standard Chinese", or Putonghua. In the west, it is called Mandarin, which is a rediculous mistake that it is now too late to correct so we continue to use the term because Westerners insist on it. You see, the Manchus were in power when The West first went into China (not counting Marco Polo, of course). The Manchus accounts for roughly 2 percent of the population, if that much. They had their own language, which should be called Mandarin. The other 98% of the population speak some form of Chinese. The real Mandarin is NOT even Chinese. It is a totally different language. But since the Manchus were in power in China, westerners mistakenly used the word "Mandarin" to mean things that are "officially Chinese". At the time, what is "officially Chinese" happens to be this "standard Chinese", which the Westerners begin to call Mandarin. The fact is, the Manchus decided that the only way they could rule China long term is to become more Chinese. So they more or less gave up their own lauguage and much of their culture in order to solidify political rule. Since the middle of the 20th century, the actually Mandarin lauguage is officially a dead language, with hardly even a scholar left who could read or speak it. But the term "Mandarin" is strangely still alive, used by Westerner to mean "Chinese".

The reason all dialects are considered still some form of Chinese instead of different languages is partly because of political and culture reasons, as Margaret Mead pointed out that "language is dialect with a political border", but also because in whatever dialect, the written form is the same. For the most part, only the pronounciation is different, and the preferred words for certain expressions are different. (Not much different from STOP in North America but HALT in the UK). You can't say that about Italian and Spanish, Dutch and German, for instance, even though they can be very similar.

Since in both China and Taiwan, the schools are taught in "Mandarin", basically every person under the age 80 can communicate in "Mandarin" with minimal difficulty. They may speak a different dialect at home, but at school and at work, most people do sound alike and communication has never been an issue.

In the 80's and early 90's, there was a surge in Chinese people learning to speak Cantonese. That is because HK is a powerful economic power and most people there speak only Cantonese but not "Mandarin". From someone in China,being able to speak Cantonese gives one added advantages in terms of career opportunities and money making possibilities. But after 2000, it has turned the other way. People in HK are learning to speak "Mandarin" and all business or other communications are done in "Mandarin" because China is now the more powerful entity, and being able to speak "Mandarin" gives those in HK more opportunities.

You have to go to a very very remote village to find people under the age of 80 who is unable to communicate in "Mandarin". I still detest using the term Mandarin to mean Chinese. It is like somehow people from Poland has to call their language German because everyone else is calling it that.

Most enlightening, thanks, Paul.

[Superhorn]

 Actually, the Manchu language, which is pretty much extinct, is not related to Chinese at all, but is a  polysyllabic language more closely related to Mongolian than any of the different forms of Chinese .
Many people in northern China are of Manchu descent, but only thei rancestors spoke the Manchu language .
   Manchu is part of the Tungusic sub family of the Altaic languages which include the Turkic languages,Mongolian and  the variou s Tungusic languages spoken by small numbers of people in Siberia, including the Evenkis, Lamuts, Goldi and Nanai .
    Some linguists believe that Japanese and Korean are realted to the Tungusic languages, but not all agree.

[springrite]

During the Qing dynesty, which is the last one, which lasted almost 300 years, China had four official languages-- Chinese, Mandarin, Mongolian and Tibetan. Every official document had to be written in four languages, and every monument must have four languages on it. It is interesting that Mandarin was the one that became extinct. During the reign of the last emperor, the only person known to be fluent in that home language was the official who had the job of written that official document. Of course, now we simply assume that he actually knew it since there is (and was) no one to verify it!

[Karl Henning]

During the Qing dynesty, which is the last one, which lasted almost 300 years, China had four official languages-- Chinese, Mandarin, Mongolian and Tibetan. Every official document had to be written in four languages, and every monument must have four languages on it. It is interesting that Mandarin was the one that became extinct. During the reign of the last emperor, the only person known to be fluent in that home language was the official who had the job of written that official document. Of course, now we simply assume that he actually knew it since there is (and was) no one to verify it!

You mean . . . he might have been faking it? : )