Elgar's Mahlerian Masterpiece

[Klaatu]

A couple of weeks back I saw a new TV documentary about Elgar, which tried to dispel the (still prevalent) notion of Elgar as a tub-thumping jingoist. Instead, the programme made a convincing case for seeing the composer as a complex, highly emotional and passionate creative artist straitjacketed into the persona of an Edwardian gentleman.

Excerpts from some of his major works were played, including the Second Symphony. It struck me that I hadn't listened to this for a long while. So, on a two-hour car journey to visit a friend, I took the opportunity to dust off the CD and give it a spin - at high volume, as the missus wasn't in the car!

Again and again, I was bowled over by the sheer brilliance of both the symphonic argument and the orchestration, but what really struck me this time was the range and depth of emotion which Elgar traverses in this masterpiece. From nocturnal spookiness to harrowing anguish; from fury and frustration to noble striving to radiant serenity.

And I found myself thinking: "this is Mahlerian!" Mahler always said that the symphony should contain the whole world, and Elgar's Second undoubtedly plumbs an entire universe of human emotion. Even the musical language - especially in the heartrending slow movement, is redolent of Mahler's sound-world.

What's my point?

Well, I was talking to an acquaintance a few days after this experience, and the conversation turned to music in general and the Elgar documentary in particular. My acquaintance told me that she had a friend who coundn't stand Elgar. "Who's her favourite composer, then?" I asked. "Mahler!" came the reply.

Now, I can only assume that this individual's assessment of Elgar came from.....let's see now....Pomp & Circumstance No. 1!

So this is by way of being a plea:
Anyone who loves Mahler, and is unfamiliar with Elgar, please do yourself a favour and plug yourself into Elgar's Mahlerian Masterpiece, the Second Symphony. You'll be glad you did.

PS for a shorter Elgar "Mahlerian Masterpiece", try the utterly wonderful Sospiri - which is as close a relative to the Adagietto of Mahler's Fifth as it's possible to get.

PPS
While we're about it....
Anyone who loves Brahms and Schumann, and is unfamiliar with Elgar's First, do yourself a favour....etc.....not for nothing was Elgar's First hailed as "Brahms' Fifth" after its first performance.

(I simply cannot understand that there are still those who believe no first-rank English symphonies exist. Elgar's duo are "up there" amongst the greatest symphonic canvases of the 20th Century.)

[springrite]

I like some Elgar, and I LOVE Mahler. But I see nothing that remotely connect the two composers.

[Scarpia]

I love some Elgar and I love some Mahler.  But again, I don't see much of a connection.   Mahler was a composer that would stuff anything that he could think of into his symphonies, cabaret music, rustic dances, operatic outbursts, lieder, cow-bells, etc.  Elgar wanted to create noble, stately music, in which the expressive elements were stretching the seams, trying to get out.  If I were to compare Elgar to another composer it might be Brahms.

And I think that Elgar earned his reputation as a jingoist.  He wrote plenty of that sort of stuff, as well as some maudlin stuff like the Dream of Gerontius which I find insufferable.  He also wrote good stuff.

[Klaatu]

If "some Elgar" means the popular pieces - especially Pomp & Circumstance No 1, Nimrod and - even - the great Cello Concerto (which can induce contempt bred from over-familiarity), then you've not heard a huge chunk of the man's best work.

If you love Mahler, please try Elgar's Second - and do listen to Sospiri if you've not heard it; I know of nothing that sounds more Mahlerian than that little piece.

If, however, you are familiar with the above works, then I fully respect your opinion and we can agree to differ. My post was simply intended to encourage Mahler enthusiasts who've not heard Elgar 2, to try what IMHO is a very Mahlerian masterwork. Of course, not everyone will react to the Symphony as I do, but that's fine - I'm just sharing an enthusiasm.

[Scarpia]

If "some Elgar" means the popular pieces - especially Pomp & Circumstance No 1, Nimrod and - even - the great Cello Concerto (which can induce contempt bred from over-familiarity), then you've not heard a huge chunk of the man's best work.

If you love Mahler, please try Elgar's Second - and do listen to Sospiri if you've not heard it; I know of nothing that sounds more Mahlerian than that little piece.

If, however, you are familiar with the above works, then I fully respect your opinion and we can agree to differ. My post was simply intended to encourage Mahler enthusiasts who've not heard Elgar 2, to try what IMHO is a very Mahlerian masterwork. Of course, not everyone will react to the Symphony as I do, but that's fine - I'm just sharing an enthusiasm.

I'm certainly familiar with both complete symphonies, the violin concerto, the Enigma variations, the violin sonata and some of the smaller orchestral pieces.  I particularly enjoy Barbirolli's recording of the second symphony and the Elgar pieces collected in the "English String Music" CD.  The cello concerto and the other substantial chamber works are planned for listening in the near future.

I certainly do not deny you validity of your impression, although it does not agree with mine (that Mahler and Elgar are polar opposites).  If I wanted to give a non-initiate an idea of what to expect from Elgar, I'd say it is like a Brahms symphony, expanded with  the orchestral technique of Strauss.

[Klaatu]

You know whereof you speak, Scarpia, and hence I completely respect your opinion. I heartily agree that much of Elgar is Brahmsian (especially the First Symphony) and the man did indeed write a lot of pot-boilers - but what composer hasn't?

I still can't help hearing bucketfuls of utterly Mahlerian angst in the Second Symphony, though. Perhaps I will remain in a majority of one! (Other Mahler enthusiasts, please have a go and see what you think. All I'm hoping is that anyone who loves Mahler will enjoy this symphony, as I feel it has a similar range and depth of emotion to, say, Mahler 9 or 10.)

[Scarpia]

I still can't help hearing bucketfuls of utterly Mahlerian angst in the Second Symphony, though. Perhaps I will remain in a majority of one! (Other Mahler enthusiasts, please have a go and see what you think. All I'm hoping is that anyone who loves Mahler will enjoy this symphony, as I feel it has a similar range and depth of emotion to, say, Mahler 9 or 10.)

Hmmm, I don't think Mahler has a monopoly on angst.  The angst of Elgar is that of a retired English Colonel, trying but not succeeding in entirely suppressing tear at the funeral of a dear friend.  The angst of Mahler is that of a three year old crying hysterically over a toy denied on line at the supermarket.      

[DavidRoss]

Who brought the popcorn? 

[Scarpia]

Who brought the popcorn? 

Aw, I saw your moniker there and was looking for a pithy comment, maybe something about Sibelius and frozen, wind-swept landscapes.   

[Luke]

I cam see what the OP is saying, though. Elgar has a depth and a traumatised interior to him which is so easily missed by those who prefer to see him as a cariacature. There are passages in Elgar with a kind of hallucinatory, mercurial quality - a very 20th century quality, I suppose, and it's that which he shares with Mahler, I think - that can take you to some pretty peculiar, haunted places. I remember going through some of these in depth sections in a few lectures from Robin Holloway - on the subject of Elgar, Mahler, Strauss and Sibelius, actually - and emerging seeing Elgar in a new light, but then Robin is good at that.

[karlhenning]

Wonder if I still have the score to the symphonies somewhere . . . .

[Luke]

They're here, of course, if it helps....


http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Elgar,_Edward

[Jared]

as well as some maudlin stuff like the Dream of Gerontius which I find insufferable.  He also wrote good stuff.

now, I'm sure you only write such lines about arguably the finest oratorio written in the 20th Cent, just to be controvertial... 

[Klaatu]

I cam see what the OP is saying, though. Elgar has a depth and a traumatised interior to him which is so easily missed by those who prefer to see him as a cariacature. There are passages in Elgar with a kind of hallucinatory, mercurial quality - a very 20th century quality, I suppose, and it's that which he shares with Mahler, I think - that can take you to some pretty peculiar, haunted places. I remember going through some of these in depth sections in a few lectures from Robin Holloway - on the subject of Elgar, Mahler, Strauss and Sibelius, actually - and emerging seeing Elgar in a new light, but then Robin is good at that.

Thanks, Luke. I think you've explained my feelings better than I have myself! Traumatised interior - that's a good one. Yes, maybe it's the sense of unease, and that "haunted" quality you describe, that makes me think of Mahler - specifically, late Mahler* - every time I hear the Second Symphony. It's certainly something, but as a non-musician - unless you count playing 3-string cigar-box blues guitar (I wouldn't if I were you!) - it's difficult for me to put this something into words.

*Yes, to clarify my own thoughts, it's late Mahler that EE's great work reminds me of - I can see that it has few points of comparison with some of Mahler's earlier stuff - the cowbells, choirs and kitchen sinks of the 3rd Symphony, for example.

[DavidRoss]

Aw, I saw your moniker there and was looking for a pithy comment, maybe something about Sibelius and frozen, wind-swept landscapes.   

Naw, I just admired your bait and expected more outrage.  For pith, try: Elgar > Mahler = Benny Goodman > Miles Davis.

[knight66]

I thought that Elgar documentary to be as good as any music programme I have seen. I was especially interested to see so many distinguished conductors listening to his music and clearly being deeply affected by it.

I can understand what you say about the 2nd and Mahler; but I don't really feel that because there are undoubted undercurrents in his music that these make him Malherarian.

I do think the opinion of him as a jingoistic composer is a lazy stereotype. Try his choral work, 'Spirit of England'. Despite the title, it is not what might be expected, but is a lyrical, outpouring, lament about war.

I agree that Gerontius is a wonderful piece, original and packed with ideas. In the South is like a lost Strauss Tone Poem. But in general, it is Brahms who he most strongly echos in his symphonic work.

Mike

[Scarpia]

now, I'm sure you only write such lines about arguably the finest oratorio written in the 20th Cent, just to be controvertial... 

Well, perhaps the tendency towards controversy is a fair criticism, although I am being frank in my inability to suffer that particular work.  I guess I need to wait five years and try to listen to it again. 

I final note added:  I popped a CD of Elgar second symphony into the player in anticipation of listening tomorrow.  Listened to the opening bars of the first movement.  The influence that screamed out to me was Strauss (i.e., Ein Heldenleben).  Mahler, I did not hear, but I have to listen to the work as a whole before saying anything meaningful.

[knight66]

Scarpia, DId you ever get the Elder version of Gerontius? I know it polarises people, to do with the words rather than the music. If you can't take the religious aspect of it in its great explicitness, can't you deal with it as we do with Sibelius Kulervo, or an opera such as Orfeo?

Mike

[Scarpia]

Scarpia, DId you ever get the Elder version of Gerontius? I know it polarises people, to do with the words rather than the music. If you can't take the religious aspect of it in its great explicitness, can't you deal with it as we do with Sibelius Kulervo, or an opera such as Orfeo?

I have the Barbirolli.  Had trouble getting past the prelude, I think it will be some time before I get back to it, there's too much Elgar I haven't heard yet, including the cello concerto and the piano quintet.

[knight66]

Fair enough, it is not a flogging crime not to mamage through it. We can't all listen to everything.

Mike