[1/20/2011] The Bi-weekly Listening and Appreciation Thread: Bruckner's 8th

[mgm]

New guy here, I have to thank Keemun for those links.  I have so far only listened to the Kubelik and it might be my new favorite.  Far from perfect but the 1 and 3 movements worked for me big time.  the brass has a buyouncy and glow that is addictive.  Thanks again Keemun.

[bhodges]

Hi mgm, and welcome. If you like, feel free to post something about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board. In any case, enjoy yourself here--and nice to see another Bruckner fan.

--Bruce

[Szykneij]

Bruckner has to be played LOUD or even better, seen live, to truly be appreciated. 

I'm definitely enjoying the Furtwangler 1944 live recording more than the Leipzig Radio Symphony recording I started with.

[MishaK]

One place in a Bruckner symphony where the woodwinds stick in the memory is the beginning of the Fifth's Finale: the clarinet's "cuckoo" followed by a comic motif also played by the clarinet. Then a few bars later a lyrical oboe solo.

There is also the horn and flute solo exchanges in the first movement of the 4th symphony at the beginning, as well as in the recapitulation when the flute plays a slow arpeggio over the horn solo; and the flute solo in the coda of the Adagio of the 9th, the clarinet solo in the scherzo of the 7th, the repeated dissonant chords in the Adagio of the 9th again, etc. etc. Also interesting is how the opening theme of the opening movement of the 3rd is passed from trumpet to winds to horn to winds, ideally as one seamless unit changing in color gradually as it moves along. There is quite a lot of interesting woodwind writing in Bruckner, actually.

[dziendobry]

Another new guy here, I had never heard any of Bruckner's symphonies until today.  I am listening to the Barenboim conducting the Berlin Philharmonic.   I am enjoying reading everyone's commentary on it.  I will participate a bit more after I have heard this a couple of times.  I am dying to hear it through some IEM's at home in peace and quiet.  The dynamics seem to go from one end of the spectrum to the other.  So many little details in the quiet bits.  Right now I am listening with a pair of open back headphones. 

[Bill H.]

I've been listening to the original 1887 version of this symphony (the Hamburg Phil version conducted by Simone Young, in fabulous sound).

There are, of course lots of differences between this "original" version and the later editions, most noticeably in the 1st two movements.   One is immediately struck by the ending of Movement One, in full fff rather than dying away in ppp, for one thing.  The loud ending has been much criticized, but I don't object to it so much on dynamics grounds as the feeling that it was sort of "tacked on" to begin with. 

The Scherzo has many changes in the Trio, some notable differences in orchestration (the woodwinds, to my ear) and the massive chordal cadences that end the outer sections go on longer (twice?) than in the revised versions. It can sound tedious, although Young seems to be able to steadily crescendo as it progresses and so ups the excitement level.  Still, the more concise later versions seem superior. 

The two final movements have additional sections that were excised in later versions.   Different orchestration too, with noticeably more use of the cymbals in the climactic section of the Adagio.  Personally I don't mind the extra music; the 3rd movement is THE emotional heart of this work and it never seems tedious to my ears--the gorgeous melodies just keep on coming.   Of course the harp adds an additional level of sheen, and it is there. 

One thing about the Finale; it ends rather abruptly, without the three note cadence that we are so familiar with.  It can be rather jarring if you are truly hardwired to expect it. 

I am sure there are more differences that I don't recall or can enumerate; my recording is a download so I don't have the liner notes where this subject is likely discussed in detail.  But overall, the later editions (Haas, Nowak, whatever) are more concise versus this original Bruckner 8.  Even if it's not as refined as his revision (and that's a subjective thing anyway), it is still a masterwork when played with absolute conviction, as Young does with the Hamburg Phil.   

[MishaK]

Hey, Bill H. Thanks for the review. I greatly admired Young's work in the original version of the 4th (a nearly copmletely different work than the one we commonly know) and have been looking forward to getting her recording of the original 8th. It's been sitting in my amazon shopping cart for ages. Maybe I will finally get it now.

[The Diner]

So, do we keep this bi-weekly thing going? Did you enjoy yourself? Do you have a new favorite piece now?

[karlhenning]

So, do we keep this bi-weekly thing going? Did you enjoy yourself? Do you have a new favorite piece now?

Yes, yes, and no (well, perhaps not favorite, but aye, I do like it).

[The Diner]

Yes, yes, and no (well, perhaps not favorite, but aye, I do like it).

I appreciate it more than I did before and I guess that was the point of all this, so "WIN!" 

[Opus106]

So, do we keep this bi-weekly thing going? Did you enjoy yourself? Do you have a new favorite piece now?

Well, your avatar has hypnotised me into accepting the BLA.

[The Diner]

Ah, so it worked! 

[karlhenning]

I appreciate it more than I did before and I guess that was the point of all this, so "WIN!" 

Yes, an entirely successful endeavor!

[Brahmsian]

So, do we keep this bi-weekly thing going? Did you enjoy yourself? Do you have a new favorite piece now?

Definitely, Dave.  We should keep this going! 

[The Diner]

Okay, I'll put up the next thread on Thursday.

[Bogey]

Okay, I'll put up the next thread on Thursday.

Absolutely.  The amount of time was perfect, IMO.

[springrite]

Having noticed this thread too late and with Chinese New Year coming up, I will pass this one but will certainly jump into the next installment! Keep it up, Dave!

[Cato]

I recall hearing the Eighth Symphony for the first time, after I had heard the Seventh, Fourth, and Ninth (in that order).

Eugen Jochum's DGG recording was fairly new at the time, and I was mesmerized by it.  I recall thinking back then that 8th symphonies usually were quirky: Dvorak's, Beethoven's, Schubert's compositions (so I thought) were fascinating but awry, and just not on the same level in comparison to their 7ths and 9ths.

Bruckner had broken that curse!  The opening movement offered riddles both whimsical and arcane, and I recall discussing it with a friend at the time, who thought that the movement had to be one of the most eccentric Bruckner ever composed.  (The Finale of the Fourth and the Scherzo of the Eighth tied for that prize!)  The proposition offered by the movement seemed to be one of a choice between accepting tragedy and an almost blithe repudiation of the proposition because of the silliness of everything.  A contradiction, but there it was!  The evolution of the movement of course sees the tragedy predominate and depress everything at the end.

And then comes the Scherzo bouncing through, a Tourette de force of jumpy quirks and non sequiturs.  Again the proposition of a great puzzle!  I wondered for some years how Bruckner heard things coming together, but eventually you throw up your hands and accept that if Bruckner heard this curious musical mosaic, then it somehow coheres.  Whether out of sheer familiarity or because I understand things differently in my dotage, or both, the Scherzo now seems to be an extension of those quivering bits in the first movement daring to challenge the darkness rising up from the bass clefs.

And speaking of which, now the Adagio must have its turn to develop the tragedy proposed in the opening movement. I heard - 46 years ago - a sister worthy of all the other Bruckner Adagios: there was no lessening of intensity, no "light-heartedness" as heard in those other 8th symphonies.  To my mind the main theme here was a struggling attempt at ascension, which seemingly succeeds at the climax punctuated by the harp, a rarity in the Bruckner orchestra.   But then of course an ascension is not really possible...and the strings in their lower registers say no, not yet.

And so Life gallops on in the Finale, whose extreme contrasts again might puzzle some, but given all that has come before, the contrasts become logical partners, rather than opposites.  The powerful opening and its subsequent return were convincing and thrilling statements of joyful optimism, and I recall wishing I could persuade everyone to listen to it!  (I suffered under the Wagnerian-Scriabinian influence that a musical work could change people's behavior for the better, but since have recovered from the disease!) One often hears the word "heaven-storming" in connection to Bruckner's works, and certainly it works for both the Adagio and the Finale, albeit in different ways. 

And of course, if you thought the elements of the work were too disparate to form a cohesive ideational whole, the last two pages of the score prove otherwise!  For days I remember standing in the middle of the speakers, and even wiring extra speakers into my pathetic 1960's stereo system, so that I could surround myself in those two pages!  (The Leopold Nowak score!)

Thrilled, exhausted, astonished, awed, and ensouled describe my reactions at the end of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony.

[karlhenning]

Fascinating, thank you, Cato!

[bhodges]

I enjoyed that, too, Cato--thank you! PS, I find the symphony very coherent, with its descending and ascending motifs--very simple by themselves--almost mirror images of each other, and used in remarkably different ways. And you're right: if there are any doubters, the final pages bring them all together.

--Bruce