On the Hunt for the Horn

[snyprrr]

The horn.

Yea, the funny pretzel shape thing that sounds like a trombone.

...pause...

...looks around...

ok, I don't how long I'd get away with horn jokes here, haha!



So, really, the horn? Seriously, I'd be looking for some 20th Century Repertoire, but, out of all the instruments that the 20th Century treated very very nicely (clarinet, percussion, trombone, cello, piano,...), even the bassoon seems to have more to give the Modern Composers than the horn. What gives?

Is this another instance of, Can the horn really make rude sounds? Unless someone can point out the horn parts in a Xenakis piece (when they're not sounding like regular horns), I don't think I've ever heard an Experimental 20th Century Work for solo horn.

The first thing that pops in my head is Ligeti's Trio, and perhaps Carter's new Concerto (which didn't bowl me over, frankly), but beyond them, I am at a loss. I did some research and these are the names that would probably have to appear on any prospective Solo Modern Horn Recital CD:

Apostel
Arnold
Goosens
Plog
Persichetti
Davies

Scelsi
Herchet
Proeve
Kalabis
Krol

Lazarof
Dodgson
Ketting
RH Lewis

Salonen
Widmann
Baumann



Yea, not really a parade of readily apparent Potential Masterpieces. Perhaps a certain member, hrr hrr, will come save the day!?!

I'm not pretending I know the Old Repertoire, but I do have a recital by Peter Damm featuring the usual recital pieces by Francaix, Saint-Saens, Bozza, Dukas, Gounod, Busser, and on and on. I'm listening now. It's nice. I'm assuming we all know that they are a handful of famous sonatas (Poulenc, Hindemith) and concertos (Strass, Hindemith) post-LvB, and the usual Philips cds and such, but, does anyone have anything really really juicy?

And, how do I tell the difference between the horn and trombone in orchestral music? They so many times seem to work as a unit?



FOUR HORNS

Schumann
Chavez
Hindemith
??

[snyprrr]

BUMP

[Luke]

Not much to offer the thread, but I would steer anyone interested in solo horn to the movement for said instrument in Messiaen's Des Canyons aux Etoiles - it's to that piece what the famous solo clarinet movement is to the Quatuor pour la fin du temps. And it contains a few nifty extended techniques, if that is what you are looking for.

My favourite bit of post 1950s century horn writing, though (and it isn't much post 1950, to be honest) is the horn obligato movement of Britten's Nocturne. That one is just sheer good fun, and jaw-dropping in its own way, when well played. And of course the part for the instument in the same composer's Serenade is one of the high points of the repertoire. But it's not the sort of thing you meant, I suppose. Knussen's rather Mahlerian-Nachtmusik Horn Concerto is one of the most enjoyable and perfectly imagined concerti for any instrument of recent years, too, I'd say.

[karlhenning]

Yea, the funny pretzel shape thing that sounds like a trombone.

No, it doesn't.

[MishaK]

Try this:

[asin]B0000D7Z62[/asin]

[snyprrr]

No, it doesn't.

Does the horn have more of the rounded, dull edged tone of the tuba, whilst the trombone has more of the piercing quality of the trumpet? I'm just trying to get an aural grip here to help in my listening.

[snyprrr]

Try this:

[asin]B0000D7Z62[/asin]

Yes, I forgot the Knussen.

[jochanaan]

Does the horn have more of the rounded, dull edged tone of the tuba, whilst the trombone has more of the piercing quality of the trumpet? I'm just trying to get an aural grip here to help in my listening.

No, the horn has its own round, full sound right in the middle of the orchestra, usually a little higher and mellower than the trombone but lower and rounder than the trumpet.  The scherzo from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony features horns--three, to be exact.  Richard Strauss loved the horn and wrote two concertos for it.  (He may have been prejudiced; his father was a horn player. )

[snyprrr]

No, the horn has its own round, full sound right in the middle of the orchestra, usually a little higher and mellower than the trombone but lower and rounder than the trumpet.  The scherzo from Beethoven's Eroica Symphony features horns--three, to be exact.  Richard Strauss loved the horn and wrote two concertos for it.  (He may have been prejudiced; his father was a horn player. )

Maybe that's what I was seeking, the hierarchy. That clears some things up.

So, the piercing of the trumpet, is cut under by the mellow horn, which then has the piercing trombone below it, which is then cut by the mellow tuba? Sort of back and forth?

[PaulSC]

Just a few more to add:

Babbitt - Around the Horn
Ligeti - Hamburg Concerto (Basically a horn concerto, but with additional obbligato parts for four natural horns)
Tippett - Sonata for Four Horns

[Scarpia]

Maybe that's what I was seeking, the hierarchy. That clears some things up.

So, the piercing of the trumpet, is cut under by the mellow horn, which then has the piercing trombone below it, which is then cut by the mellow tuba? Sort of back and forth?

It is hard to describe precisely.  In range it is between and overlapping with trumpet and trombone.  When played softly the horn has a very rounded, almost rustic tone.  When played softly in high register it is more nasal and can sound like a wounded cow.  When played loudly, it has a very bright sound rich in overtones, which is more subtle than the tat of a trumpet or the blat of a trombone.  Another difference is that the brass face forward, but the bell of a french horn faces down towards the floor, so they are heard with a less direct, more reverberant sound.  Two of the more famous horn bits are the big theme from the finale of Brahms 1 (solo horn the first time, then two horns on the reprise) and the heroic theme from Strauss' Don Juan.  Contrast the Brahms with Sibelius 7, which has a similar sort of theme, but for trombone.  The best thing to do is get the score of some piece you like and follow along so you will know when the horns are playing.  Another hint, normally the horns are physically separated from the brass, and in stereo recordings it is typical to hear trumpets and trombones from the right of center and horns from left of center.

[MishaK]

You also have to distinguish between different kinds of horn parts. All the way up to the romantic period, the four horns in a horn section are usually divided by range and tonality, such that 1 plays the exposition and restatement solos, 2 has a supporting role, 3 plays in the higher register and in a different key (often solos in the development section of a sonata form movement, especially if the key of the development is harmonically distant from the key of the exposition - this has to do with the original use of natural horns, typically 1 & 2 would be in a different key than 3 & 4 so that you can at all times have at least 2 horns able to play in whatever key you're in), and no.4 plays at the extremely low end of the range. All together they make a chorale, but individually they take up very different parts of the spectrum. A horn player auditioning for 3rd horn (high horn) in an orchestra is asked to play a different audition repertoire than one auditioning for 4th horn (low horn). One great example of low horn writing is the 4th horn solo from the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th. Here is a neat mini-mini-masterclass by BPO 4th horn Sarah Willis demo-ing how that is done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoZLWaMYaQ

[Scarpia]

You also have to distinguish between different kinds of horn parts. All the way up to the romantic period, the four horns in a horn section are usually divided by range and tonality, such that 1 plays the exposition and restatement solos, 2 has a supporting role, 3 plays in the higher register and in a different key (often solos in the development section of a sonata form movement, especially if the key of the development is harmonically distant from the key of the exposition - this has to do with the original use of natural horns, typically 1 & 2 would be in a different key than 3 & 4 so that you can at all times have at least 2 horns able to play in whatever key you're in), and no.4 plays at the extremely low end of the range. All together they make a chorale, but individually they take up very different parts of the spectrum. A horn player auditioning for 3rd horn (high horn) in an orchestra is asked to play a different audition repertoire than one auditioning for 4th horn (low horn). One great example of low horn writing is the 4th horn solo from the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th. Here is a neat mini-mini-masterclass by BPO 4th horn Sarah Willis demo-ing how that is done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoZLWaMYaQ

Interesting, I wasn't aware of the distinctions between the different horn parts.

In any case, I realize I just took delivery of a horn concerto by Sallinen (a filler on a cpo disc containing some symphonies).  Haven't listened to it yet, but I thought I'd point out it's existance.
[asin]B000E0VO0G[/asin]

[snyprrr]

Well, I actually came across some genuine avant-garde horn in the form of Anaktoria (1969), by Xenakis, which I hadn't put together until I listened the other day. Its orchestration mirrors Mozart's Octet, with clarinet, horn, and bassoon, and string quintet.

Though the clarinet sort of takes the lead, at one point I was like woooah (Blossom!), That's the horn making that big distorted tone. And as I intently listented to the rest of the piece, I heard the horn being torn apart, and making the sounds that I have heard it make (disguised in ensemble) all along, but never could put it with the horn. Here, the horn was fairly isolated, and one could hear all the new techniques being vigorously worked out. Interesting!

[escher]

i think you could find something interesting here:
http://wilderworld.podomatic.com/

[snyprrr]

You also have to distinguish between different kinds of horn parts. All the way up to the romantic period, the four horns in a horn section are usually divided by range and tonality, such that 1 plays the exposition and restatement solos, 2 has a supporting role, 3 plays in the higher register and in a different key (often solos in the development section of a sonata form movement, especially if the key of the development is harmonically distant from the key of the exposition - this has to do with the original use of natural horns, typically 1 & 2 would be in a different key than 3 & 4 so that you can at all times have at least 2 horns able to play in whatever key you're in), and no.4 plays at the extremely low end of the range. All together they make a chorale, but individually they take up very different parts of the spectrum. A horn player auditioning for 3rd horn (high horn) in an orchestra is asked to play a different audition repertoire than one auditioning for 4th horn (low horn). One great example of low horn writing is the 4th horn solo from the slow movement of Beethoven's 9th. Here is a neat mini-mini-masterclass by BPO 4th horn Sarah Willis demo-ing how that is done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoZLWaMYaQ

It is hard to describe precisely.  In range it is between and overlapping with trumpet and trombone.  When played softly the horn has a very rounded, almost rustic tone.  When played softly in high register it is more nasal and can sound like a wounded cow.  When played loudly, it has a very bright sound rich in overtones, which is more subtle than the tat of a trumpet or the blat of a trombone.  Another difference is that the brass face forward, but the bell of a french horn faces down towards the floor, so they are heard with a less direct, more reverberant sound.  Two of the more famous horn bits are the big theme from the finale of Brahms 1 (solo horn the first time, then two horns on the reprise) and the heroic theme from Strauss' Don Juan.  Contrast the Brahms with Sibelius 7, which has a similar sort of theme, but for trombone.  The best thing to do is get the score of some piece you like and follow along so you will know when the horns are playing.  Another hint, normally the horns are physically separated from the brass, and in stereo recordings it is typical to hear trumpets and trombones from the right of center and horns from left of center.

Interesting guys, thanks.

[Mr. Darcy]

Definitely sounds like most folks understand and appreciate the horn better than I do/did, but since this entertaining read I've been smitten by the instrument:

[asin]B002SB8P9M[/asin]

Now, I'm in love with Britten's Serenade and Ligeti's Trio, as well as most everthing Mozat or Brahms wrote for horn.

[snyprrr]

Definitely sounds like most folks understand and appreciate the horn better than I do/did, but since this entertaining read I've been smitten by the instrument:

[asin]B002SB8P9M[/asin]

Now, I'm in love with Britten's Serenade and Ligeti's Trio, as well as most everthing Mozat or Brahms wrote for horn.

That does look like fun!

[Scarpia]

I've mentioned it before, but just listened to this horn concerto by Sallinen.

[asin]B000E0VO0G[/asin]

A wonderful piece.  It eschews the custom in modern concertos of gratuitously stretching the limits of the solo instrument as to make it unrecognizable.  It sounds very idiomatic and natural on the horn (although no doubt extremely demanding) and has lots of wonderful bits of melody and sonority.

[MishaK]

Does the composer require the performer to dress like Santa Claus?