Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle

[Cosi bel do]

I also uploaded to Youtube the Rozhdestvensky video version. Haven't listened to all of it yet but what I heard and saw so far is very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/v/b1CYE__dbVQ

[kishnevi]

I think the topic might have been better under the "Opera and Vocal" section though, maybe it could be changed...

About versions, I have said a few things about this one, unfortunately oop on CD... Do NOT miss it...

http://www.youtube.com/v/1mCiL8iyp_k

Linking up....this is a new release, and apparently never released previously

Have yet to listen but there is one known negative already...it is sung auf Deutsch.
Performance date 15 August 1962.

[Mirror Image]

Yep, Jeffrey, Bluebeard being sung in German is a deal-breaker for me as well. A complete mystery to me is the fact that these operas exist in other languages. I know, I know, people of other countries Hungarian may not be the best ( ) BUT that's why libretto with translations exist.

[lescamil]

A complete mystery to me is the fact that these operas exist in other languages.

Fun fact: Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is possibly the only opera where the composer has encouraged the piece to be translated and sung in any language.

[springrite]

Fun fact: Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre is possibly the only opera where the composer has encouraged the piece to be translated and sung in any language.

Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

[Karl Henning]

Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

[Moonfish]

Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

We could just use the "What should my avatar be?" threads here at GMG as the libretto?   

[Sergeant Rock]

Yours is the greater challenge ... generating a libretto in gibberish!

Easy solution...hire snyprrr to write it.

Sarge

[Ken B]

Karl should compose and opera with me providing a libretto in gibberish, sung however you'd like in any language or no language.

You should try Four Saints in Three Acts

[kishnevi]

Linking up....this is a new release, and apparently never released previously

Have yet to listen but there is one known negative already...it is sung auf Deutsch.
Performance date 15 August 1962.

Just finished listening.
Sonics superb, and much better than most recordings of that era, studio or live (this was an unstaged concert performance).
Singing and conducting excellent, and if there were flubs I did not catch them.
9 out of 10, and that only because it is in German.  If it was in Hungarian it would be 10 out of 10 and the reference recording.

[Mirror Image]

Just finished listening.
Sonics superb, and much better than most recordings of that era, studio or live (this was an unstaged concert performance).
Singing and conducting excellent, and if there were flubs I did not catch them.
9 out of 10, and that only because it is in German.  If it was in Hungarian it would be 10 out of 10 and the reference recording.

Ah, I have to wonder why it wasn't sung in Hungarian? I'd definitely buy this recording if it was.

[Jo498]

Because that is the common language in Lucerne...?
Most opera, especially in "exotic" (i.e. not Italian or French) languages was sung in German in German-speaking countries until a few decades ago. Only with international stars (and later also the ensembles of provincial operas becoming international) Italian, French and maybe sometimes also Russian, Czech and Hungarian became standard. I have been told that what is internationally sung in Janacek operas is still often not recognizable by native speakers, because those languages are just to difficult to pronounce. Or singers learn the sound with a coach but have no idea about their meanings.

[Mirror Image]

Because that is the common language in Lucerne...?
Most opera, especially in "exotic" (i.e. not Italian or French) languages was sung in German in German-speaking countries until a few decades ago. Only with international stars (and later also the ensembles of provincial operas becoming international) Italian, French and maybe sometimes also Russian, Czech and Hungarian became standard. I have been told that what is internationally sung in Janacek operas is still often not recognizable by native speakers, because those languages are just to difficult to pronounce. Or singers learn the sound with a coach but have no idea about their meanings.

But certainly you recognize that Bluebeard being sung in Hungarian gives the opera a different aesthetic as oppose to being sung in a language which the opera wasn't originally written in?

[Jo498]

Sure. But in the case at hand we are not talking about a recording "produced for eternity", but a live document. Of course if follows the custom of the time.

Until 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

[North Star]

Until 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

Of course, you live in das Land ohne Untertitel...

[Ken B]

Sure. But in the case at hand we are not talking about a recording "produced for eternity", but a live document. Of course if follows the custom of the time.

Until 30-40 years ago apparently the common opinion was that it is more important that the audience should understand the sung text and follow the action than to preserve the subtleties that usually get lost in translation (especially singable translation). Of course, not in all operas the language may be so important. I am told that the peculiarities of Hungarian (and Czech in the case of Janacek) are really important for the MUSIC of Bartok and Janacek.
But still, it does not seem obvious to me (as is assumed nowadays often without even considering the arguments of both sides) that this overrules the factor that the aesthetic experience of the audience is obviously also very different depending on whether it understands what is sung or if it does not understand ANYTHING AT ALL, except the name "Judith" (as can be rather safely assumed for about 99% of German or English audiences).

Not just the audience. DFD was the busiest singer in the world. Woukd they have got him, never mind her, if he had to spend weeks practicing Magyar he learnt phonetically?

Of course, you live in das Land ohne Untertitel...

In the 60s? Yes for sure. But that doesn't really address Jo's point. Should a German audience in the 60s watch a Shakespeare play in English, even if the theatre were equipped with sur-titles? Not clear why.

[Moonfish]

Not just the audience. DFD was the busiest singer in the world. Woukd they have got him, never mind her, if he had to spend weeks practicing Magyar he learnt phonetically?

In the 60s? Yes for sure. But that doesn't really address Jo's point. Should a German audience in the 60s watch a Shakespeare play in English, even if the theatre were equipped with sur-titles? Not clear why.

Interesting that you should use DFD as an example as he actually did take the time to learn to sing it in Hungarian. The Sawallisch version below is sung in Hungarian!!!      It seems like his wife (from Hungary) was a factor in the matter.
I think it is great, but I am a neophyte in regards to Bluebeard's Castle. Perhaps I was lucky stumbling across this Hungarian version?

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

[Drasko]

Singing opera in translation is not a question of aesthetic, it's still the same music and the same text resulting in the same meaning.

It's a musical question. Every language has its own different rhythm, cadence, frequency and pronunciation of vowels ... and composer setting words to music is very aware of that, it influences the way the music is written. When the text get substituted with text in different language, with different rhythms and cadence is bound to clash to some extent.

It was thought in one period (50s-60s) that local audience understanding the plots trumps musical awkwardness, but thankfully that's mostly everywhere gone out of practice. 

[bhodges]

Interesting that you should use DFD as an example as he actually did take the time to learn to sing it in Hungarian. The Sawallisch version below is sung in Hungarian!!!      It seems like his wife (from Hungary) was a factor in the matter.
I think it is great, but I am a neophyte in regards to Bluebeard's Castle. Perhaps I was lucky stumbling across this Hungarian version?

[asin] B00000E3YT[/asin]

Not weighing in on the language issue (haven't heard any other than in Hungarian), but this Sawallisch is wonderful - one of my top 3 or 4 versions. (And I have not heard a number of those available.) Julia Varady makes a great Judith, Fischer-Dieskau is really creepy, and Sawallisch gets a glorious sound from the orchestra.

--Bruce

[Mookalafalas]

I just stumbled onto this thread after reading an old (2007) review of Bluebeard's castle by a critic (Peter Aczel, editor of a long defunct magazine called "The Audio Critic") whom I really like. As what he is talking about fits into the present topic so well, I will go ahead and paste his review in here:

Béla Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle (Opera in One Act, Libretto by Béla Balázs). Sung in Hungarian. Bluebeard: Gustáv Belácek, bass; Judith: Andrea Meláth, mezzo-soprano; Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.660928 (recorded and released 2007).
Béla Bartók: The Wooden Prince (Complete Ballet). Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, Marin Alsop, conductor. 8.570534 (recorded 2007, released 2008).

In May 2007 Marin Alsop and the Bournemouth orchestra had a big early-Bartók recording session in Poole, England, committing to CD their version of the 1911 opera and the 1914–16 ballet. Whether it was a worthwhile effort is debatable, since both works have benefited from a number of much better modern recordings. (If I weren't Hungarian and something of a Bartók watcher, I wouldn't even bother to write about these CDs.) Alsop is too bland for Bartók; the music demands greater incisiveness, more of an edge, you could almost say more violence. Merely beautiful orchestral balances don't cut it. And that's not the only problem. For example, the spoken prologue is missing from "Bluebeard," which is a falsification because the music is supposed to start under the narrator's voice. As for the Slovak bass Belácek, he sings well enough, but his heavily accented Hungarian reminds me of the itinerant Slovak tinkers who used to peddle their wares in the courtyard of our Budapest apartment house when I was a child. They would call out "Wiring! Patching! Pot mending!" in bad Hungarian; we called them wire-Slovaks. This isn't just pedantic quibbling; the Magyar cadences are an intrinsic part of Bartók's vocal metrics. Ten seconds of listening to Mihály Székely, the greatest Bluebeard of all time (Mercury Living Presence, D101216, recorded 1962) will prove my point. (Never mind that there aren't too many Hungarian-speaking music critics in the U.S.) The mezzo Meláth at least sings in normal Hungarian. The ballet music of the Prince doesn't quite have the searing and unrelenting intensity of the opera, but there are many gorgeous passages, magnificently orchestrated. Alsop plays it kind of blah half the time; she goes on automatic pilot much too often. Compare, for example, the superb 1991 performance by Pierre Boulez with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra on DGG. The audio quality of both Naxos discs is good, with a credible soundstage and wide dynamic range, but that alone won't save the day.