Suggestions for a Newbie

[bigshot]

Core repertoire is a lot better introduction to classical music than edgy. The Living Stereo series had some Handel and Bach represented, as well as Gould and Copland. Most Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were recorded with just two microphones. Some had a center channel too, but the intent of the mix was to capture the natural perspective of an orchestra from the best seat in the house.

[Scarpia]

Core repertoire is a lot better introduction to classical music than edgy. The Living Stereo series had some Handel and Bach represented, as well as Gould and Copland. Most Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were recorded with just two microphones. Some had a center channel too, but the intent of the mix was to capture the natural perspective of an orchestra from the best seat in the house.

What does Mercury have to do with your incorrect claim that Living Stereo recordings are binaural?  As far as I know, RCA never issued a single binaural recording.  What does the fact that that Living Stereo had "some Handel" have to do with the fact that there is Handel in that box?  No Mozart or Haydn either, and one short piece by Bach.   One could do worse, but with $150 bucks one could do a LOT better than that box.   I think a single box that is claimed to be an ideal introduction shouldn't be dominated by a few artists, and should have a broad spectrum of music, not be dominated by music from one era.  And frankly, there is a lot more to classical music than Reiner/Chicago and Heifitz.

[Grazioso]

The way people listen to popular music is entirely different than the way people listen to classical. Popular music is all about riffs and hooks that grab you on first hearing. The music is designed to be listened to informally. Most people multitask with their iPod on shuffle. The length rarely exceeds a casual attention span- under five minutes. People usually have favorites that change with the mode of the day. A lot of popular music that is over a year or two old is forgotten, replaced by current hits.

None of that applies to classical music. In fact, if you attempt to listen to classical music that way, you'll end up bored and impatient for the music to hurry up and get to the "good parts".

I'm a bit late to the party, but I also felt the need to question this. While I understand the thinking behind it, it doesn't mirror my experience. You can listen to classical or rock music either casually or with rapt attention. When I listen to rock music, I am indeed just listening and not multitasking, and I'm paying attention, as best I can, to every little detail. (And I do so not out of some abstract sense of duty, but rather because music naturally engages my full attention.)

It's true that any music can be enjoyed on extra levels if some degree of effort or study is put into it. For me, having studied music history and some theory has opened up new approaches to listening and learning about music. Dramatically more so, having played rock guitar and bass has made me a vastly more skilled and focused listener to all types of music, not just rock. (And conversely, it's made wonder if I can ever fully appreciate a violin or piano piece, not having played those instruments.)

And to the original poster, fwiw, you're part of a big community: over the decades, I've encountered many metal fans who are drawn to classical. The musics do share quite a bit.

[Scarpia]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I also felt the need to question this. While I understand the thinking behind it, it doesn't mirror my experience. You can listen to classical or rock music either casually or with rapt attention. When I listen to rock music, I am indeed just listening and not multitasking, and I'm paying attention, as best I can, to every little detail. (And I do so not out of some abstract sense of duty, but rather because music naturally engages my full attention.)

It's true that any music can be enjoyed on extra levels if some degree of effort or study is put into it. For me, having studied music history and some theory has opened up new approaches to listening and learning about music. Dramatically more so, having played rock guitar and bass has made me a vastly more skilled and focused listener to all types of music, not just rock. (And conversely, it's made wonder if I can ever fully appreciate a violin or piano piece, not having played those instruments.)

And to the original poster, fwiw, you're part of a big community: over the decades, I've encountered many metal fans who are drawn to classical. The musics do share quite a bit.

Corresponds to my experience rather closely, to the extent that I still listen to pop music these days.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I would agree with Mr. Scarpia. Classical music is in a very unusual position as what is often considered the "core" repertory is an artificially restricted body of work dominated by 19th-century orchestral music and opera. Why that should be the case is beyond my understanding (it's as if the "core" repertory of literature excluded Shakespeare and Dante, and the "core" repertory of the visual arts omitted Rembrandt, Vermeer, Goya, and Velázquez but was based largely on the French impressionists), but this 60-CD set simply perpetuates that very distorted slice of the musical pie. Not only is there virtually no Mozart, Haydn, or Bach, but also nothing earlier than that and no 20th-century music except for some very conservative work from composers like Rachmaninoff, Puccini, Copland, and Respighi. We get three complete Puccini operas taking up 6 CDs, but The Rite of Spring doesn't even make it, let alone The Marriage of Figaro or the B minor Mass. There's a total of two solo piano discs, but no chamber music, choral music, or Lieder. I would also want to see more diversity in performance than Reiner, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Munch, et al., though it's understandable that a single label would include only those artists under contract to it. Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.

[bhodges]

Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.

Yep, yep, yep--agree wholeheartedly.

--Bruce

[Scarpia]

I would agree with Mr. Scarpia. Classical music is in a very unusual position as what is often considered the "core" repertory is an artificially restricted body of work dominated by 19th-century orchestral music and opera. Why that should be the case is beyond my understanding (it's as if the "core" repertory of literature excluded Shakespeare and Dante, and the "core" repertory of the visual arts omitted Rembrandt, Vermeer, Goya, and Velázquez but was based largely on the French impressionists), but this 60-CD set simply perpetuates that very distorted slice of the musical pie. Not only is there virtually no Mozart, Haydn, or Bach, but also nothing earlier than that and no 20th-century music except for some very conservative work from composers like Rachmaninoff, Puccini, Copland, and Respighi. We get three complete Puccini operas taking up 6 CDs, but The Rite of Spring doesn't even make it, let alone The Marriage of Figaro or the B minor Mass. There's a total of two solo piano discs, but no chamber music, choral music, or Lieder. I would also want to see more diversity in performance than Reiner, Heifetz, Rubinstein, Munch, et al., though it's understandable that a single label would include only those artists under contract to it. Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of great things in this collection, quite a few of which are as good as it gets. But like most packages of this type, it seems driven more by corporate interests than by an in-depth understanding of composers, artists, and repertory.

Clearly the set is directed at Living Stereo groupies, and is not intended as an introduction to classical music.

[bigshot]

What is a Living Stereo groupie? Someone who thinksn that Chicago under Reiner and Boston under Munch were among the greatest orchestras and conductors on record? If so, count me in. I think you're just being argumentative with that comment.

Everyone I've known who wanted to get into classical music was interested in finding out about the music they'd heard little bits of all their life, but never knew what the pieces were called. That means core 19th century repetoire... Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Schubert. If a newbie already has an idea that they want to start with Stockhusen or Motets, sure, there are better places to start than this set. But I've never met anyone who wanted to start with 12 tone rows myself. Someone who bought this set could stand to supplement it with some Bach and Mozart and a few more modern pieces, and eventually music outside the core. That's what being a classical music lover is all about. The box is just a starting point.

You might think about a better way to spend $150 to start out. Try to boil down a better beginning point and let us know what you come up with.

As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.

[Scarpia]

What is a Living Stereo groupie? Someone who thinksn that Chicago under Reiner and Boston under Munch were among the greatest orchestras and conductors on record? If so, count me in. I think you're just being argumentative with that comment.

Everyone I've known who wanted to get into classical music was interested in finding out about the music they'd heard little bits of all their life, but never knew what the pieces were called. That means core 19th century repetoire... Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Schubert. If a newbie already has an idea that they want to start with Stockhusen or Motets, sure, there are better places to start than this set. But I've never met anyone who wanted to start with 12 tone rows myself. Someone who bought this set could stand to supplement it with some Bach and Mozart and a few more modern pieces, and eventually music outside the core. That's what being a classical music lover is all about. The box is just a starting point.

You might think about a better way to spend $150 to start out. Try to boil down a better beginning point and let us know what you come up with.

As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.

Actually there have been several threads that have address the issue I've bolded, including this one.   This set may be "just a starting point" but I honestly think it is rather a bad one, since it does not include most of the music that first drew me towards classical music, such as the late Mozart symphonies,  the Brandenburg Concerti, the Rite of Spring, the Brahms Symphonies.  Why chose a "starting point" which omits these essential things?  And despite the fact that few will serioulsly dispute the quality of Reiner's work, to base the set on recordings of a few artists is not an advantage. 

[Leon]

My point wasn't that there is a minimum amount of knowledge required to appreciate classical music. It was that if you are not willing to read liner notes and learn about the lives of the composers and forms, you aren't going to get much out of it. Obviously, your understanding will grow and your musical horizons will broaden as you learn more and more. I learn new things about music I'm already familiar with all the time.

I generally agree more with your side of the argument than those who are opposing your postings.  But, I would not be as sure of the idea that learning is a crucial aspect to appreciating classical music or any other art.  That said, for myself, it follows naturally and immediately that upon discovering some new music or style or composer, etc., I then next want to find out as much as I can about the period, style, etc.  This helps me to put the music in context and also affords me some perspective on the music that I while I liked immediately was liking it in a vacuum.

Not that that is a bad thing - for some people, appreciation is simply what they do without any need for context other than one they create as they experience the music or whatever.

As to the box set you suggested, I agree that for someone absolutely new to classical music could be a good basic collection - but I think it is too much money for a beginner and too limited in scope for a serious fan.  I am not sure who it appeals to.

Thread duty: Naxos has a series of "Discover Music of the [...] Period" which are budget priced 2-CD collections.  Caveat emptor - they do not include many complete works, but would provide (for a small investment) an introduction to a wide variety of music that one could then supplement with complete performances after tasting the selections.

[bigshot]

When I was a kid back in the 70s, there was a commercial on late night TV for a KTel record set of classical music bleeding chunks. It had John Williams (not the conductor, the actor who replaced Sebastian Cabot on Family Affar) in a smoking jacket and ascot sitting in an oversized wing back chair, intoning lines like "Remember these familiar themes..." then they would play ten second bits of a couple of dozen classical "tunes". I'll never forget Williams lowering his pipe and looking earnestly into the camera and saying, "Did you know that Strangers in Paradise is actually Polivetsian Dance number two by Borodin?" my friends and I would adopt a phony English accent and recite that line over and over on the schoolyard. It never failed to get a laugh.

I'm sure that set would be an abomination to me now. But when I think back, I can distinctly remember as a 12 year old wishing I had $19.95 (payable in three easy installments) to buy that set and find out about all that great music. Unfortunately, I didn't and my classical music introduction had to wait until college when I bought Karajan's Ring cycle, an introduction to classical that I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but it got me on the road.

As much as I know about classical music now, and I still learn more all the time, there is a certain soft spot in my heart for the Nutcracker, Unfinished Symphony, Pathetique and Prelude to the Afternoon of a Fawn. These are the pieces I heard ten second snippets of in a commercial forty years ago and said to myself, "Hey! I heard that one in a Bugs Bunny cartoon!"

If I'm going to be a music snob, I'd rather be the one that sits in the wingback chair puffing on a pipe and earnestly discussing the link between popular music and Borodin. I don't want to be the one who dismisses a whole century's worth of popular music because it isn't fashionable. Classical music can be just as fun as the Lone Ranger's theme song and "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda". It doesn't have to be as complex as calculus to be good. I hope I never forget that.

[mc ukrneal]

As for background listening, just imagine if that was ALL you are willing to do with classical music. We had a newbie who said he didn't have time and wasn't willing to make an effort to learn about the music. How much is he going to get out of it with that approach? It's a bit like having Shakespere's plays on the TV in the next room while you do a crossword puzzle. It's fine to pet people on the head and defend their right to remain steadfastly ignorant, but you aren't doing them any favors.

Actually, that is not quite what he said. He said he had limited time. So I really think we are just mis-communicating a bit and are probably closer than it seems.

As to starting sets, wow, this is just so difficult. There is no 'perfect' set to start with. My first thought was you might be talking about the Chandos set, but that lacks any Mozart or Beethoven for example, and would need to be supplemented (though quality is pretty good). 111 Part 2 from DG is a possibility, though this also focuses on post-classical. It's also a bit random. I think a mix of single discs and smaller sets would work best myself, but that would take a little time just to pick the right combo. Here's one I love, and would be great as part of a starting group - and don't be misled by the stupid name (some great music AND great performances  - just need a few more like this covering other composers for a solid intro):
[asin]B00001X59W[/asin]

[Opus106]

Thread duty: Naxos has a series of "Discover Music of the [...] Period" which are budget priced 2-CD collections.  Caveat emptor - they do not include many complete works, but would provide (for a small investment) an introduction to a wide variety of music that one could then supplement with complete performances after tasting the selections.

Those CDs actually supplement books on the same topics. With only about 100-200 pages, they nicely serve the purpose of introducing the reader to the famous and some not-so-famous composers, their music and the culture of the times in relation to the music. The writing is non-technical, and is quite engaging (in the Classical Era volume, which is, so far, the only one I have read). At certain points in the book, there are suggestions of works, and in particular movements, which display some aspect of the style of a composer or some school, which you can either listen online, at Naxos' website (64 kbps) or by playing that CD.

[Scarpia]

$15 instead of $150, and you get 111 individual movements from a very wide spectrum of works, then you can find other works by composers that struck your fancy.

[asin]B0040G44E8[/asin]

Seems to me like a decent place to start.

[Bulldog]

The 60 CD Living Stereo box set which constitutes a basic library of core repertoire in great performances and audiophile binaural sound. It's the best bargain out there for people interested in investigating classical music for the first time.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Stereo-60-Collection-Box/dp/B003UCPEJ2/

That box will keep a music lover busy for a very long time.

Thanks for telling me what I get for my $150.  I have no doubt that it's an excellent box set, but it does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions. 

If I was new to classical music, I'd want to survey early music on up to contemporary to find those eras and styles that most caught my attention.  Spending $150 on a limited repertoire from one label just wouldn't do the trick.  Ultimately, I think that the box you recommend is best for those who already have it in their head that 19th century music is the most favorable period. 

[bigshot]

111 classical tunes on six CDs for $19.99! KTel Lives! I wonder if they'd let me make the commercial for them?

One more funny thing I remember from when I was first starting out... I remember believing that a recording wasn't good unless it had the title in a big yellow box on the cover. It must have had something to do with the German language. When you see the word "gesselschaft" after a label's name it just HAS to be good! I accumulated a good sized chunk of DGG LPs before I saw the error of that one!

[bigshot]

"It does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions"

I'm going to be laughing about that line all day!

Imagine how constricting it must feel to listen to a century's worth of Romantic era music when one is used to the depth and breadth of heavy metal!

[Opus106]

If I was new to classical music, I'd want to survey early music on up to contemporary to find those eras and styles that most caught my attention.

If you're new to classical music, there's a very good chance that you'd be surprised to know that "classical" music is still being composed these days.

I think all this brouhaha being made about the 60-CD set is only with retrospect of being seasoned listeners. Not every newbie is going to care much about interpretation (there's a...um, friend of mine who doesn't do, too ) nor whether the music being played is in- or out-side the "core" repertoire. Think of it this way: once the music within the set has been listened to many times, the person is likely to ask for suggestions, at which point others can chime in with their favourite recording of Palestrina, or Poulenc, or Boulez.

It is, of course, a different matter altogether whether every newbie would wish to spend $150 as a first step in their introduction to this music. In that case, there are various avenues (not necessarily illegal ) where one can access a lot of music for very little or no money at all.

[bigshot]

Yay! I looked up John Williams on wikipedia and look what I found...

Outside his film career, Williams gained fame as the star of a television commercial for 120 Music Masterpieces, a four-LP set of classical music excerpts from Columbia Records. This became the longest-running nationally seen commercial in U.S. television history, for 13 years from 1971 to 1984. It began, "I'm sure you recognise this lovely melody as 'Stranger in Paradise.' But did you know that the original theme is from the Polovetsian Dance No. 2 by Borodin?"

[Gurn Blanston]

"It does seem rather limiting with all those romantic-era compositions"

I'm going to be laughing about that line all day!

Imagine how constricting it must feel to listen to a century's worth of Romantic era music when one is used to the depth and breadth of heavy metal!

  Yes, what a blow! Of course, I only listen to 1700-1900 so I have my own limitations to deal with. However, I have to agree with you, next to my own method of finding a genre I liked and exploring at will, I tend to favor your recommendation. I haven't the slightest issue with "standard rep"; it did get to be that for a good reason. And even though I was inherently cheap and money had a different value then, I bet I paid more than $150 for my first 60 CD's!   



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