symphony fantastique - funeral bells

[david johnson]

i've noticed that in the fantastique recordings i've had, only ormandy/philly uses deep pitched bells in the finale.  he uses them in both the sony and the later rca recordings.  i prefer it that way and wonder what other conductors do this?

dj

[MishaK]

I don't remember that recording well enough to be sure what you mean, but the pitches for the bells are indicated in the score. Not sure why one would play them lower than indicated. If bells are unavailable, Berlioz says to play it on a piano in octaves. I have seen different editions of the score, some of which indicate that the bells are supposed to be derrière la scène (i.e. offstage - to be heard from a distance), and others making no indication of the spatial placement of the bells. Some actually follow this instruction properly, e.g. Solti 1970, and I find it a compelling spatial effect. I don' t think Berlioz intended the witches to be dancing on the market square waking up the good burghers, but rather a bit farther off from town with the bell tower heard in the distance, but who knows. I don't have any source on which version is correct in that respect. Many, if not most, conductors do it with the bells squarely onstage in the percussion section. Some of course go completely insane, like Vladimir Golschmann, who gets gigantic church bells placed center stage, which are not only woefully out of tune, but have something like a two minute reverb that obliterates the details of everything else that is going on.

[knight66]

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,247.msg409153/topicseen.html#msg409153

Extract from the notes by the conductor.

'The pitch prescribed makes it impractical to use bells.....the marking in the score, 'Grande Pedale', cannot refer to bells, but to a piano.

It is impossible to find two bells that can sound one of the three Cs and one of the three Gs which are marked.'

Mike

[MishaK]

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,247.msg409153/topicseen.html#msg409153

Extract from the notes by the conductor.

'The pitch prescribed makes it impractical to use bells.....the marking in the score, 'Grande Pedale', cannot refer to bells, but to a piano.

It is impossible to find two bells that can sound one of the three Cs and one of the three Gs which are marked.'

Mike

Which "conductor"? Your link goes to a thread on Berlioz. That quote sounds like serious BS flatly contradicted by the text in the score.

[knight66]

It links to reply 94 which reviews the disc in question.

Mike

[MishaK]

It links to reply 94 which reviews the disc in question.

Mike

It's nonsense. Makes me lose respect for Immerseel, whose work so far I've appreciated. Yes, bells are notoriously imprecise in pitch, but there is no reason why bells could not have been found (or indeed made - the Chicago Symphony for instance uses bells purpose-made for just this work!) that produce the correct general pitch. The pedal writing refers to the alternate instrumentation, which Berlioz clearly specifies in the score should be a piano, *if* decent bells can't be found. It's clear, though, that this is distincly less preferrable.

[MishaK]

I just looked up the Immerseel recording on amazon, and have to say, this one reviewer puts that point correctly:

Then it's back to perfectly 'Salonfähig' witches who celebrate a not very demonic Sabbath, tightly on the beat. Van Immerseel's academic dryness culminates in the curious decision not to use bells but two Erard piano's [sic]. In the booklet, he includes a misguided calculation that is meant to show that the bells Berlioz wanted would be too heavy and crash through every podium. It's another typical moment over over-authentic deviation, for the score leaves little doubt that the three C- and G- octaves indicated are only meant for those emergency situations where the bells had to be substituted by a piano. When there are bells, Berlioz instructs, the conductor may choose which octave to play, so only two, not six bells are needed.

Sorry, but on this one Immerseel is rather fecally plenary.

[knight66]

Well, no argument from me. I did not find it effective, though the sheer sound of the piano is novel. It interested me to see another person suggesting his whole approach is too buttoned up. However, it was an ear opening experience.

Mike

[FideLeo]

Well, no argument from me. I did not find it effective, though the sheer sound of the piano is novel. It interested me to see another person suggesting his whole approach is too buttoned up. However, it was an ear opening experience.

Mike

http://www.youtube.com/v/K9ewUzyg7mk

'Bells' start at around 2:55 mark.  I thought that was two Erard fortepianos put to good use...finally a SF without bells or whistles

[Daverz]

Paavo Järvi is supposed to have really big bells.  I just ordered the hybrid SACD from Newbury Comics on Amazon.

[MishaK]

Paavo Järvi is supposed to have really big bells.  I just ordered the hybrid SACD from Newbury Comics on Amazon.

*Nobody* has bigger bells than Golschmann. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Paavo Järvi is supposed to have really big bells.  I just ordered the hybrid SACD from Newbury Comics on Amazon.

Somehow that just seems like more information than I wanted...



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Now playing:
Vesque von Püttlingen  Der Herbstabend, Op. 8 #2

[Brian]

I get where the original poster is coming from - I've heard recordings with deep, dark, satisfying bells and recordings with puny little chimes. I've also had at least one concert experience of the Fantastique hurt by screechy high-pitched bells.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I just looked up the Immerseel recording on amazon, and have to say, this one reviewer puts that point correctly:

Your sic in the quotation points to a mistake a Dutchman is apt to make - in Dutch the plural of piano is written as piano's, with an apostrophe. I checked, and he is...

[MishaK]

Your sic in the quotation points to a mistake a Dutchman is apt to make - in Dutch the plural of piano is written as piano's, with an apostrophe. I checked, and he is...

Interesting. I never noticed that despite growing up 40 minutes from the Dutch border.  Is this plural 's only for imported foreign, non-Dutch words? I guess there is no worry about confusion as in English, since Dutch has no genitive, right?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Interesting. I never noticed that despite growing up 40 minutes from the Dutch border.  Is this plural 's only for imported foreign, non-Dutch words? I guess there is no worry about confusion as in English, since Dutch has no genitive, right?

For a genitive we say 'het deksel van de piano' (the piano lid). But with proper names we use either an s, too - 'Johans antwoord' (Johans answer) or 'het antwoord van Johan'. The apostrophe has to do with the fact radio ends in an open vowel; if we put an s immediately after it, the long o would look like a short o. By the way, the diminutive of piano becomes pianootje...

[MishaK]

Thanks for that clarification. Makes sense. I'd like to actually learn Dutch. I spent a couple of months last summer (involuntarily) reading a bunch of Dutch documents for a legal case. With my regular exposure to the Netherlands I can read it pretty well. Have to look up a word here and there. Just can't speak it at all.

[david johnson]

I get where the original poster is coming from - I've heard recordings with deep, dark, satisfying bells and recordings with puny little chimes. I've also had at least one concert experience of the Fantastique hurt by screechy high-pitched bells.

you are very wise   

[Szykneij]

I just re-listened to the piece to refresh my memory and it seems to me that an adequate (if not better) option for the bell part is that familiar staple of every high school band room -- rolled out at Christmas time and not seen again for the rest of the year -- The Orchestra Chimes.



The low tones on this instrument are deep and resonant enough to affect the proper result. As a matter of fact, it sounds like that's the instrument used on the budget Point-Classics CD I'm listening to now (Alberto Lizzio, Suddeutsche Philharmonic).