Who is "greater," Bach or Beethoven?

[Opus106]

Take a Rammstein or Lady Gaga fan at random --- what are the chances that s/he'll have the will and patience to listen to a Beethoven sonata or Chopin nocturne?

Definitely non-zero. 0:) And I'd be more interested in actually performing an experiment than pluck a number out of thin air. Of course, after selecting the person at random, I would also need to take care of extraneous factors like not "embarrassing" them in front of peers and such.

More generally: turn your TV on MTV for half an hour --- and then please let me know: on what specific levels does it compare to a half-an-hour long classical music recital?

Now, that depends on the person who is actually watching/listening to it.

[Florestan]

Definitely non-zero. 0:) And I'd be more interested in actually performing an experiment than pluck a number out of thin air.

I'm also very interested in this kind of experiment. How could we make it come true? 

(BTW, non-zero might mean 40%... but also 0.0075%). 

Of course, after selecting the person at random, I would also need to take care of extraneous factors like not "embarrassing" them in front of peers and such.

Are you implying that it is embarrasing in front of peers for a Lady Gaga / Rammstein fan to listen to Beethoven and Chopin as well? 

Now, that depends on the person who is actually watching/listening to it.

I was asking you, a specific flesh-and-blood person called Navneeth.

[Opus106]

(BTW, non-zero might mean 40%... but also 0.0075%). 

But non-zero is non-zero. I'd be happy with just one "convert".

Are you implying that it is embarrasing in front of peers for a Lady Gaga / Rammstein fan to listen to Beethoven and Chopin as well? 

I'm suggesting that the person might react differently (intentionally) if asked to 'rate' a classical piece in front of their peers. [Oh, that's some lame piece of <expletive>, dude.]

I was asking you, a specific flesh-and-blood person called Navneeth.

Me? I would of course choose classical concert over MTV. But that's just me.

[ibanezmonster]

But its the truth. Beethoven is in fact greater then Lady Gaga. You'd have to be insane to even argue this point.

Although I agree, you have to keep in mind that they are trying to do completely different things with their music. Beethoven is greater at writing Beethoven music and Lady Gaga is better at writing stupid music.

"Greatness" and "Greater" are terms that are so vague that I don't think they should be used. Beethoven plays a much more advanced game, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more skill and musical knowledge to write his music than does Lady Gaga. But, of course, she's not trying to be Beethoven, either.


Btw, who did you vote for? 

[Bulldog]

I don't support diluting musical high art to attract the masses; I do support exposure to classical music in the schools.

In "mixed" company I take a live and let live attitude, seeing no point in discussing or debating the virtues of classical music vs. pop, rock, country, rap etc.  Within myself, I have no doubt that classical music surpasses other musical forms.

[karlhenning]

Beethoven is greater than Lady GaGa. Though Beethoven never won a Grammy in his day.

[Opus106]

"Greatness" and "Greater" are terms that are so vague that I don't think they should be used. Beethoven plays a much more advanced game, and it takes waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more skill and musical knowledge to write his music than does Lady Gaga.

Indeed, the only objective aspect of comparison is the relative complexity of their respective musics. (Can I say musics? )

[Gurn Blanston]

Indeed, the only objective aspect of comparison is the relative complexity of their respective musics. (Can I say musics? )

Perfectly legitimate word referring to discrete classes of music.   



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Now playing:
Scottish National Orchestra / Neeme Jarvi - Rimsky-Korsakov Orchestral Suite from 'Le Coq d'Or'  pt 3 - Queen of Shemakha's Dance - King Dodon's Dance

[71 dB]

Lady Gaga is better at writing stupid music.

So funnily said I laughed!      

[Opus106]

Perfectly legitimate word referring to discrete classes of music.   

Thanks.

[71 dB]

Within myself, I have no doubt that classical music surpasses other musical forms.

My father thinks jazz is greater music than classical.

[Florestan]

I'm suggesting that the person might react differently (intentionally) if asked to 'rate' a classical piece in front of their peers.

This implies that the person is just "another brick in the wall". who either can't / won't think for himself or is afraid of expressing his thoughts if they happen to go against peer pressure. 

Me? I would of course choose classical concert over MTV. But that's just me.

It's not just you, it's at least me (and JdP) as well, the difference being that I (or he) have no fear proclaiming it out loud: most (and I mean 99%) contemporary pop music is crap, and contrary to ukrneal's* claims, if anything, it impoverishes one's life --- because more often than not it draws one away from the true sources of beauty and truth. Now, of course, if one equates the beauty and truth as expressed by Bach or Beethoven with the vulgarity and bad-taste (on all levels, from the music itself to the visual "story" it tells) which is the trademark of most (and I mean 99%) contemporary pop music, any discussion is useless. To put it mildly, I have never been a fan of cultural relativism. 

* I hasten to add that ukrneal's classical music taste, especially concerning rare opera recordings, is impeccable!  0:)

Btw, who did you vote for? 

Beethoven, but this tells all about me, not about Bach.

I don't support diluting musical high art to attract the masses; I do support exposure to classical music in the schools.

In "mixed" company I take a live and let live attitude, seeing no point in discussing or debating the virtues of classical music vs. pop, rock, country, rap etc.  Within myself, I have no doubt that classical music surpasses other musical forms.

Me loves Bulldog. 

[starrynight]

I don't see the point comparing popular music which many would argue isn't that great with classical music that most think is great, I'd compare like with like.

[Opus106]

This implies that the person is just "another brick in the wall". who either can't / won't think for himself or is afraid of expressing his thoughts if they happen to go against peer pressure. 

It's a fair assumption. Also, their free-thinking abilities (or a lack of it) need not have anything to do with their appreciation, to use the term loosely, of classical music.

To put it mildly, I have never been a fan of cultural relativism. 

Well, there you go.

[Florestan]

their free-thinking abilities (or a lack of it) need not have anything to do with their appreciation of classical music.

Agreed. The ability to think is (1) innate; (2a) fostered by a classical education system,; (2b) hindered by a postmodern (i.e, contemporary) educational system; (3) cultivated by one's personal commitment to it.

It is my firm conviction, based on personal experience, that among contemporary (and I mean 99%) pop music fans one encounters more often than not (2b) and the opposite of (3). Of course, (2b) is not their fault and the opposite of (3) is a sad consequence of (2b) --- but this is a completely different discussion.

[starrynight]

This implies that the person is just "another brick in the wall". who either can't / won't think for himself or is afraid of expressing his thoughts if they happen to go against peer pressure. 

Can't that be the case with classical music as well?

[karlhenning]

My father thinks jazz is greater music than classical.

I'd entertain the question.

[Florestan]

Can't that be the case with classical music as well?

I don't quite get it.  Please be more specific.

[Gurn Blanston]

I don't quite get it.  Please be more specific.

I may be misreading, but my thought when I read that was along the lines "everyone on this forum likes Beethoven, therefore I must like Beethoven even if I think he sucks... ". I was taking a totally outrageous situation to be overly dramatic there, of course....

 


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Now playing:
Czech PO \ Kletzki - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai - "Ode to Joy"

[Florestan]

"everyone on this forum likes Beethoven, therefore I must like Beethoven even if I think he sucks... ".

I see. Well, I can't think of any such instance on GMG --- not with Beethoven nor any other composer.