Crowded Chamber Music

[Grazioso]

Septets, octets, nonets... These formats mark an interesting byway in chamber music. They lack fully standardized instrumentation, so each one is an adventure in tone colors. You might hear an instrument not normally found in chamber music, like the trumpet (Hummel, Saint-Saens); piano may or may not make an appearance; and strings may left on the outside looking in (Stravinsky's Octet for winds).

It seems the heyday for these formats was the late Classical-early Romantic era, though more recent examples aren't lacking.

This Brilliant box set is a good introduction, with septets, octets, and nonets (plus a sextet for good measure) by Spohr, Hummel, Kreutzer, Berwald, Schubert, and Beethoven:



Some other composers (with available recordings) for the forms include Clementi, Onslow, Czerny, Reicha, Ries, Bargiel, Fesca, Farrenc, Mendelssohn, Raff, Bruch, Bax, Parry, Stanford, Svendsen, Eisler, Hindemith, Enescu, Francaix, and Martinu.

Any thoughts or particular recommendations?

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Great topic; I love big chamber music. You get the tone colors of a large ensemble, plus the precision of chamber music. 

The Spohr Octet and Nonet are wonderful pieces, from a composer who has otherwise dropped off the board of recognition. I like the Nonet especially.

From the 20th c., there's of course Stravinsky's Octet, which is scintillating, and his more gnarly Septet (a serial work)...but I like Martinu's Nonet most of all. One of the last things he wrote, and one of his most serene pieces, despite the fact he was dying when he wrote it.

More recently, we have the Penderecki Sextet from 2000 - the best thing I've heard from his neo-romantic period. It's on a fine Naxos anthology of his chamber music.

[Scarpia]

Some other composers (with available recordings) for the forms include Clementi, Onslow, Czerny, Reicha, Ries, Bargiel, Fesca, Farrenc, Mendelssohn, Raff, Bruch, Bax, Parry, Stanford, Svendsen, Eisler, Hindemith, Enescu, Francaix, and Martinu.

Any thoughts or particular recommendations?

Your obvious omission is Schoenberg who wrote a Serenade (Op 29) and a Suite (Op 24) which have 7 or more instruments including winds, as well as a Chamber symphony for 15 instruments and "Transfigured Night" for string sextet (no winds so I guess it doesn't count).

[Josquin des Prez]

More recently, we have the Penderecki Sextet from 2000 - the best thing I've heard from his neo-romantic period. It's on a fine Naxos anthology of his chamber music.

One of the masterpieces of recent times. My favored in this category has to be Enescu though.

[karlhenning]

Out in the Sun for ten winds. Heed the Gurnerator.

[Luke]

The Nonet for mixed ensemble is, apparently, a Czech speciality. I have to confess I don't know too many of them, barring Martinu's masterpiece and a few attractive pieces by Haba. Some research required...

[Luke]

One of the masterpieces of recent times. My favored in this category has to be Enescu though.

Well, I agree entirely, though he wrote two that would fit this thread, the earlyish octet (strings only) and the somewhat later, more mature dectet (winds only). Both arevgreat, the earlier piece one of his best-known works, but the later piece more typical.

[jochanaan]

Two additional works for consideration:

Charles Gounod: Petite Symphonie for nine winds

Edgard Varèse: Octandre

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

How about Webern's Concerto for Nine Instruments? Maybe not thought of because the term "concerto" throws people. Or because it's in Webern's late characteristic strict serial form which scares folks away. In any case, it's really a nonet.

[Scarpia]

How about Webern's Concerto for Nine Instruments? Maybe not thought of because the term "concerto" throws people. Or because it's in Webern's late characteristic strict serial form which scares folks away. In any case, it's really a nonet.

In that case, include Berg's Chamber Concerto.

[val]

Not forgetting Enescu's Dixtuor for winds and the chamber Symphony for 12 instruments - one of the great masterpieces of the century! Or Mihaud 6 "Petites Symphonies".

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Another good one: Rautavaara's Octet for Winds. This dates from 1962, i.e. long before he turned New Age-y, and is based on serial procedures. You can find it on the Ondine disc of his brass/wind music. (Even if you hate his more recent music, you should like this one.)

[Grazioso]

In that case, include Berg's Chamber Concerto.

And Bax's septet is technically a "concerto for flute, oboe, harp and string quartet".

So many, too many to mention, here a few ..

Bach Brandenburg Concertos etc
Mozart Gran Partita
Wagner Siegfried Idyll original version ..
[etc.]

Thanks for the input, though I was thinking of pieces that were formally conceived of as octets, nonets, etc. versus earlier chamber concertos, serenades, divertimenti, etc. on the one hand and chamber orchestral pieces on the other. (E.g., the Siegfried Idyll was first performed by 17 musicians, which is quite a gathering--the Wagners must have had a big stairway!)

The suggestion of the Gran Partita raises an interesting point. I was doing some more reading on these larger chamber forms, and they mark an interesting outgrowth of the classical serenade (or divertimento). The serenade often had more than four movements, was performed outdoors for special events or gatherings, and featured pairs of wind instruments playing in tandem, augmented potentially by single strings.

The first septets and their ilk, such as Beethoven's popular hit from 1800, often kept the extra movements and some of the wind instruments, but got rid of the instrumental pairings, freeing each instrument to play its own virtuoso or solo role.

(Musicologists hop in with any corrections, please.)

[snyprrr]

Wow, I was just thinking about this Thread before I saw it!

It still amazes me that the Martinu Nonet is the People's Choice, considering what one might imagine such a large repertoire. But, as has been shown, the field is really not all that crowded. I have the Martinu on a Jecklin disc with comparable pieces by Harsanyi and Tansman.

I really like the gruff and bluff of Hindemith's Late Octet: ugly in all the right ways!

Also, Xenakis's Anaktoria (1969) was written for a Mozart festival, for the same forces as the Mozart octet (I don't know this one). The Xenakis piece is one of his most pealing and noisy works, which must have horrified at the time.

Also, Copland's string Nonet is one of my favs. I think we also have a Diamond string Nonet.

And how about the two pieces by Janacek, with piano?


Xenakis, in his chamber ensemble pieces, seemed to settle on a 13 member ensemble, which included a string quintet, the four brass, and the four woodwind. To this was added either piano or percussion. So, maybe, this should be seen as the fulcrum of the Chamber Symphony/Concerto ensemble? I have been very interested in how any particular Composer comes up with their instrumentation for these types of pieces.

Do we have an ensemble of bass instruments, for example? Perhaps with a treble lead? Or, how about this:

guitar
flute
trombone
viola
tuba
harp
string bass
mallet percussionist
bass clarinet

or, something like that?

How about the Last Chamber Work, Fledman's For Samuel Beckett? I would consider this piece the end all of all Chamber Music. Poof,... done!

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

It still amazes me that the Martinu Nonet is the People's Choice,

Why?? It's an awesome piece.

Also, Xenakis's Anaktoria (1969) was written for a Mozart festival, for the same forces as the Mozart octet (I don't know this one). The Xenakis piece is one of his most pealing and noisy works, which must have horrified at the time.

That's really saying something. I'll have to check that one out.

And how about the two pieces by Janacek, with piano?

Yes! how could I forget those. The Capriccio and the Concertino. The first has especially weird instrumentation.

[Grazioso]

Yea .. for those into categorizing things .. i tend to go by groups of instruments involved.. some sources will tell you that 1 to 50 instruments can be considered a 'chamber' config, ... you can go right back to even before Bach's time ... consort music .. to the figures like Dowland, Lawes, Purcell etc; most of those the 'hits' i listed fall well beneath the 50 mark .. the Wagner original is just 13 instruments, so is the Berg, Mozart, Ligeti ..the Birtwistle is 14 players, Stravinsky i listed is 7, 11, 12, 15 etc.

I've read of the original Tribschen Idyll (i.e., pre-publication birthday gift form of the Siegfried Idyll) performance as using 13, 15, or 17 players, according to various program notes. Anyone know if that's ever been clarified definitively?

Re: 50 players, I think anything even approaching that leaves the realm of chamber music proper (intimate, one-to-a-part musical dialogues like piano trios or string quartets) and moves into the realm of small(er)-forces orchestral works.

[Grazioso]

it's beautiful piece.

True, and a great antidote for people who very wrongly suppose that Wagner is just bombast and greedy dwarfs shouting in German.

'Chamber Orchestras'  have existed for a long long time ..

True, but here we're talking about chamber music in the modern, accepted sense of the term, as a genre distinct from orchestral works (be they for twenty players or 120).

[Brian]

More recently, we have the Penderecki Sextet from 2000 - the best thing I've heard from his neo-romantic period. It's on a fine Naxos anthology of his chamber music.

Just gave this a listen yesterday. I thought it a fine piece, the second movement especially (first a bit dull), but couldn't tell what if anything about it was "neo-romantic." Oh well.

[Josquin des Prez]

Just gave this a listen yesterday. I thought it a fine piece, the second movement especially (first a bit dull), but couldn't tell what if anything about it was "neo-romantic." Oh well.

It isn't serial. That's ground enough for some people to dismiss his late work as reactionary tripe. Admittedly, i have yet to listen to his late symphonies which are supposed to be the offenders, but the late chamber works are definitely among the greatest compositions of recent times.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

Just gave this a listen yesterday. I thought it a fine piece, the second movement especially (first a bit dull), but couldn't tell what if anything about it was "neo-romantic." Oh well.

It's "neo-romantic" because it wasn't in the avant-garde style that initially made him famous. Maybe we need a different term; but for the moment we're stuck with this one.

It isn't serial.

I don't think any of KP's work was ever serial. Atonal yes, but that's not precisely the same thing.