Schumann's "Frauenliebe und Leben" - Sung by males?

[TheJoe]

Hi everyone,


Does anyone know of any recordings of Schumann's Frauenliebe und -leben performed by a male singer?

For that matter, how do you feel about the idea of this song cycle being performed by a male?  Any opinions?


Thanks!

[springrite]

Hi everyone,


Does anyone know of any recordings of Schumann's Frauenliebe und -leben performed by a male singer?

For that matter, how do you feel about the idea of this song cycle being performed by a male?  Any opinions?


Thanks!

Given the title and without changing the words, I do not see any justifiable logic in using a male singer for this song cycle.

[TheJoe]

Given the title and without changing the words, I do not see any justifiable logic in using a male singer for this song cycle.

Well, back in Schumann's time, singers such as the baritone Julius Stockhausen would often perform the cycle, accompanied by the likes of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms.  Also, considering that the original cycle of poems and the song cycle setting were composed by men, and could therefore possibly be considered an expression of a man's fantasy, I personally could imagine it being convincingly performed by a male singer...perhaps with the proper presentation/explanation.

[springrite]

Well, back in Schumann's time, singers such as the baritone Julius Stockhausen would often perform the cycle, accompanied by the likes of Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms.  Also, considering that the original cycle of poems and the song cycle setting were composed by men, and could therefore possibly be considered an expression of a man's fantasy, I personally could imagine it being convincingly performed by a male singer...perhaps with the proper presentation/explanation.

Then change the title.

There was also a time when castrati were used on stage. We don't do that anymore. I can only take "HIP" so far.

[TheJoe]

Then change the title.

There was also a time when castrati were used on stage. We don't do that anymore. I can only take "HIP" so far.

Thanks for the insightful input.

So far I've managed to find one instance of a male performing this song cycle - baritone Matthias Goerne, as described in these now ancient but still interesting articles:


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E05E1DE163EF935A35752C1A9639C8B63&pagewanted=2

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/opera/3651564/I-understand-how-to-be-a-woman.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandjazzmusic/3651862/Crossing-the-border-between-the-sexes.html

[Maciek]

Personally (though this is just an opinion), I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer. And particularly if it's Goerne - that's something I'd like to hear. After all, both Schumann and Chamisso were males (at least AFAIK). So the "voice" of the text is actually that of a man imagining a woman. Plus, there is already so much singing repertoire that is performed by both male and female singers (though perhaps a lot of it isn't this much "gender-specific"). Fischer-Dieskau's reaction seems a bit strong...

[Harry Powell]

I personally consider very unlikely that a singer might reach the same fantastic world where Chamisso and Schumann dwelled when composing the words or the music (I mean, a man imagining a woman's feelings). Then we should consider the insurmountable difficulties with the singular writing that a baritone would face and the bad effect that the transposition would have on the color of the songs.

The Wagner cycle has little if any defense since the composer wrote for a soprano.

[Scarpia]

Personally (though this is just an opinion), I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer. And particularly if it's Goerne - that's something I'd like to hear. After all, both Schumann and Chamisso were males (at least AFAIK). So the "voice" of the text is actually that of a man imagining a woman.

I would think the voice in the text is that of the woman the man is imagining not that of the man who is imagining.

[Maciek]

Well, "voice" is ambiguous in this context - which is precisely why I used that word. Some people will read the poems, imagining all the while that they are reading something "written" by a woman. Others will be constantly aware that it's a figment of a man's imagination. Both readings are valid, it's just a matter of narrowing down or widening the context. It might even be argued that neither reading has precedence over the other, they just frame the text differently. The "figment" one has a "wider frame" - it takes more into account, including metatextual (or paratextual) information such as the author's gender. Now, I personally would argue that a male voice singing Schumann's cycle is simply a correlate of that "wider" reading of the poems (plus various complications due to the fact that this was originally written for female voice in the technical/musical sense). Certainly, some might find it offensive. But then, some will also find it offensive that a man is writing a set of poems where the speaking subject is a woman.

Another way of looking at the whole matter: it may also be boiled down to what usually constitutes a HIP discussion. How offensive is it to play on a modern piano music written before the piano was invented? Your mileage may vary. Some think there's no problem either way, others think that one of the options is preposterous.

Personally, but again, this is just my opinion, I don't see a definitive argument either for or against a male singing Schumann's cycle. I can see arguments, but no clincher (so to speak). And that's why I don't see any reason why the cycle shouldn't be performed by a male singer.

(I'll probably keep pondering the matter in my spare time, though. So, who knows, maybe I'll change my mind?)

[knight66]

At first glance, I thought....NO. But such singers as Fassbaender have sung Winteriser with great success. David Daniels recorded Les Nuits d'ete including the songs Berlioz assigned to female voices and that 'cycle' is normally sung by women, despite some being originally assigned to men.

I would have to hear it and then decide; it would always be a niche market concept. The Schumann songs are sometimes decried as being outmoded in that the woman perceives her life to be lived through and for her man. I wonder what new light a man might throw on the topic?

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Off-topic: Fortunately, Schumann's masterpiece trascends the mere concept of mode. If audiences aren't prepared to make the effort to accept the Romantic conventions in "Frauenliebe" as part of the artistic experience it's their problem, not Schumann's.

As for women successfully performing "Winterreise" and "Kindertotenlieder" I'd like to point out that they're for the most part mezzos or contraltos. The contralto voice has a solemn and ambiguous color which can be exploited in these cycles. There's a true tradition backing the contralto "en travesti". No tradition of baritones singing as women.

[knight66]

Thank you for the lecture.

[Harry Powell]

Don't mention it. I'm not a forumer of vague remarks.

[Harry Powell]

Resuming the lecture, I think there's a simple argument which clinches the discussion. Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!", "Nach der Schwestern Spiele, Nicht begehr' ich mehr" or "Ich drücke dich fromm an die Lippen, Dich fromm an das Herze mein", not to mention "Helft mir, ihr Schwestern". Ridiculous not just for the words but for the way Schumann set them to music and how they'd sound in the robust voice of a baritone. That was my first reaction and to tell the truth I come back to it in spite of more elaborate arguments.

[knight66]

Yes, I do think it highly unlikely that it would prove to be other than jarring. However, as pointed out, moving in the opposite direction has proved successful and enlightening and the low voice point is a red herring.

I also thought about female Hamlets and men playing women's roles in Shakespeare. The latter an old and now very rare tradition, the former still occasionally done and seemingly proving to be successful beyond the mere modish. So my mind was not entirely closed, though I am not offering to sponsor any male recordings of the Schumann as an experiment.

Mike

[Harry Powell]

Well, I presume that a study of Schumann's score would tell us that vocal color and womanly nuances were anything but irrelevant when he composed the music.

[Maciek]

Resuming the lecture, I think there's a simple argument which clinches the discussion. Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!", "Nach der Schwestern Spiele, Nicht begehr' ich mehr" or "Ich drücke dich fromm an die Lippen, Dich fromm an das Herze mein", not to mention "Helft mir, ihr Schwestern".

Well, the problem is that it's hardly "natural" for a woman to start singing about herself and her experiences in verse with piano accompaniment. Which is why this argument doesn't clinch anything for me. From a certain point of view, it is just as hilarious to imagine a woman singing those exact lines. And, of course, just as hilarious to think that it was a man who wrote them.

[Harry Powell]

Then Lieder as a genre are hilarious. Forgive me, but this is nothing but a red herring.

[Maciek]

Well, actually, that should mean that we agree. Though I'm under the impression that we don't, really. My point, anyway, was that if the concept of lieder as a genre is not hilarious, then there shouldn't be anything hilarious about a man singing a woman's thoughts either. Both concepts are similarly "realistic". Or rather: "unrealistic". (Well, the reasoning went in the other direction, but I'm reversing it now, since I think it works both ways.)

But I can state my views in a simpler way (sorry, I'll use the same quote again):

Don't you really think ridiculous to imagine a baritone singing words like "Er, der Herrlichste von allen, Wie so milde, wie so gut!"...

I don't. I think it goes against convention, that's all.

But, clearly, this is where we differ.

Though conventions can be unconventional too. I'm starting to muse off topic here, but... Women Hamlets (a much more traditional notion, as Mike pointed out) are probably not ridiculous either, at least not in principle. But then, men Hamlets are not ridiculous in principle, and yet sometimes they do come out completely ridiculous.

(Incidentally, I've only seen a woman-plays-Hamlet staging once, actually only bits of it, and did not like it very much.)

But these are arguments against your "clincher" argument against male performances of Frauenliebe und Leben. More important to me is the argument for such a performance, which I already stated earlier on: I like the way it would go with a certain interpretation of the literary text.

(BTW, I have to say I'm really enjoying this thread - much more than I would have expected. Thanks.)

[knight66]

I think the difficulty lies in a man seemingly feminising himself in order to express what is meant to come out of the mind of a woman....despite it coming out of the mind of a male poet.

In the novel there is this frequent quest for the writer to provide an authentic voice of a character of the opposite sex. There may be a space in which the sex of the performer becomes irrelevant, it is whether they can convey the text meaningfully to the extent we can suspend our normal mindset.

Mike