Schumann's "Frauenliebe und Leben" - Sung by males?

[Scarpia]

I can see a strong argument in favor.   By modern standards the text is so silly, it is hard to imagine a woman expressing such sentiments  It is somewhat easier to imagine a man imaging a woman expressing such sentiments.

[knight66]

Mind you, I would rather listen to this than listen and watch. A disembodied voice please; no chance to observe anyeven inadvertent simpering.

Mike

[Maciek]

I can see a strong argument in favor.   By modern standards the text is so silly, it is hard to imagine a woman expressing such sentiments  It is somewhat easier to imagine a man imaging a woman expressing such sentiments.

OK, I have to admit now that the thought has crossed my mind: if I wanted to listen to an ironic interpretation of Schumann's cycle, I would stand for nothing less than a male performer.

[Harry Powell]

I think the debate is going a bit astray. Let's turn to specific aspects: that's to say, to the musical means Schumann used to depict the poet's words. I'm reading Schumann's original score: the writing is rather low-lying for the woman voice as it frequently goes under the stave. I can't imagine the full chest tones of a baritone voicing those passages. To express the melancholy and gentleness within the words Schumann must have thought in the smoothness that only a woman cant obtain by means of the mixed tones. Another example: I'm not a musician but I've grown used to identify a score's specific demands on each string - listen to the grupetti in "Er, der Herlichste von Allen.  That's not writing for a male voice. It's that simple. Now if you use a voice which will sound either jarring or parodic in those moments you're betraying Schumann's intentions.

[Maciek]

That may all be. And then again - maybe not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I understand you haven't heard Goerne sing this.

The other thing: but Goerne is a musician. 0:)

As to Schumann's intentions: I've noticed that composers tend to be very open to new interpretations of their work. Two examples that came to mind: Chopin's fascination with how Liszt played his music. And Szymanowski allowing his sister to sing the tenor part in his 3rd Symphony. (I'm not saying that Schumann would approve of an ironic vision of his work - I'm just saying that composers are human beings who can be convinced about all sorts of things. And in many cases that is a good thing.)

[Harry Powell]

That may all be. And then again - maybe not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and I understand you haven't heard Goerne sing this.

Now you simply keep saying "it may be and it may not"... That's not an argument to justify playing Brahms' Violin Concerto on a Cello.
Goerne is a musician... and haven't repeated the experience.
By the way, DFD's also a musician... And didn't wait to taste the pudding.

[Scarpia]

I'll be looking it up to see if Liszt has a transcription of this stuff so I can hear it without voice at all.

[Harry Powell]

 

[Maciek]

Now you simply keep saying "it may be and it may not"... That's not an argument to justify playing Brahms' Violin Concerto on a Cello.
Goerne is a musician... and haven't repeated the experience.
By the way, DFD's also a musician... And didn't wait to taste the pudding.

My saying "it may be and may not" is simply a gentle way of saying I don't find what you said convincing. I think it's unfair to dismiss a performance offhand, based on how you imagine it would sound like. I'd hate to be treated that way if I were a performer.

Speaking of cello, one of the first performances of Szymanowski's 3rd Symphony was with the tenor part played by a solo cello. So there you go.

Obviously, I like the concept of a guy singing this cycle - I find it original and very interesting. And I like the way it lays bare certain conventions - the artifice of the whole singing situation and the artifice of this particular literary text. The fact that it goes against expectations (in a meaningful way) is exactly what I like about it. I am not saying Goerne did it well - never heard him singing it - but I believe he had the right to do it and there was nothing inherently wrong in the idea.

[Maciek]

I'll be looking it up to see if Liszt has a transcription of this stuff so I can hear it without voice at all.

Actually - that's a good point. A non-vocal transcription of a vocal work goes much further than Goerne went. It does away with the literary text and the subtleties of the vocal writing. And yet composers do it. And one rarely hears the comment that it's "ridiculous, stupid and wrong".

[Harry Powell]

It's very confortable to use the "it may and not" motto to every single argument I expose, but it's not a real debate.
I had something to say about the final bars in the seventh Lied, but anticipating your answer... I retire.

[Harry Powell]

Actually - that's a good point. A non-vocal transcription of a vocal work goes much further than Goerne went. It does away with the literary text and the subtleties of the vocal writing. And yet composers do it. And one rarely hears the comment that it's "ridiculous, stupid and wrong".

Isn't there any difference between the act of performing and that of arranging another composition?
I see you are a consummate expert in red herrings, my dear fellow.