Are you intrigued by music that disturbs and/or challenges?

[karlhenning]

James doesn't dig the Mozart viola quintets, he ain't got no soul . . . .

[jochanaan]

...How about this: ol' stuck in the mud pre-20th century listeners challenge themselves with 20th century music, if the super avant garde crowd challenge themselves with pre-Schoenberg tonal, not so dissonant music.

How about it?  But I've never actually met anyone like that.  Most of the contemporary music aficionados I've actually talked to have a deep respect for the Old Masters.

[DavidW]

How about it?  But I've never actually met anyone like that.  Most of the contemporary music aficionados I've actually talked to have a deep respect for the Old Masters.

I'm talking to gmg forumites, laying down a challenge.  I'm not characterizing all listeners everywhere!

[Philoctetes]

Ah yes indeed but I'd like to see James, Sid, Philo or MI pull that off.

I like Lortie playing Mozart's Piano Concertos.

[DavidW]

I like Lortie playing Mozart's Piano Concertos.

  Well I take it back Philo.

[Philoctetes]

  Well I take it back Philo.

There's really not any music, that I can think of, that I don't enjoy, on some level.

[Mirror Image]

Ah yes indeed but I'd like to see James, Sid, Philo or MI pull that off.

I listen to music that I like as we all do (I hope), so I will definitely back down from this challenge and say that there's enough music in this universe for all of us to enjoy.

[Mirror Image]

We're talking about newish composers as challenging... but I bet there are a few listeners that don't find that music challenging, but would never get through a Haydn symphony or a Mozart opera.

How about this: ol' stuck in the mud pre-20th century listeners challenge themselves with 20th century music, if the super avant garde crowd challenge themselves with pre-Schoenberg tonal, not so dissonant music.

No, I couldn't get through a Mozart opera because I don't like Mozart. I don't have a problem with Haydn. I enjoy a lot of his music in particular his VCs.

[DavidW]

I don't have a problem with Haydn. I enjoy a lot of his music in particular his VCs.

Awesome. 0:)

[Philoctetes]

I will, openly admit, that the music that I have the hardest time listening to is from the classical period. Namely, the symphonies of Mozart and Haydn (although I like Mack-a-rack's renditions).

[DavidW]

Philo, have you tried Harnoncourt's recording of the Paris Symphonies?  Well there is alot more to the classical era than just symphonies.  Heck my favorite works of the classical era are chamber works anyway.

[Philoctetes]

Philo, have you tried Harnoncourt's recording of the Paris Symphonies?  Well there is alot more to the classical era than just symphonies.  Heck my favorite works of the classical era are chamber works anyway.

Indeed, I have tried Harnoncourt. I know there is a lot more, but I was just talking about my problem area. I enjoy the chamber and solo music of the era.

[CD]

The most difficult period of music for me to get into is Renaissance vocal music (pre-Josquin).

[Mirror Image]

For a way in to Boulez - I would recommend Pli selon pli, a work which obsessed me as a teenager (BBCSO/Lukomska/Boulez). Its first section, Don, opens with such a dramatic gesture - an almighty chord in the orchestra and then a haunting, to-the-heart melodic line in the soprano (a row, I guess, but for me it was once heard, never forgotten, one of the great melodic moments of the 20th century). And then the music retracts into itself, the soprano disappears. Everything becomes about sonority, mystery, clouds of sound from which emerge the most incredible things, clatterings, muted screams...it seems to possess a dream-logic, and I don't know any other piece like it. The three central improvisations, as Sfz said, are also full of melodic lines and delicate colours, but it is Don which is particularly iconic in my mind

A second recommendation would be the early cantata Le soleil des eaux, whose two movements are very clear, dramatic, sumtuously orchestrated and full of good things. The first movement, describing a lizard on a rock, is essentially a set of unaccompanied recitatives (all, like the melodiy in Don, utterly memorable, beautiful...I can hear them seductively in my mind right this second!) separated by short, wildly inventive orchestral interludes. The second movement involves a choir, and is more violent, stormy, lyrical, episodically depicting a river. A really fabulous piece, and very short - you won't lose many minutes out of your life trying it out! The companion cantata (not really a companion, but the two are essentially contemporary and comparable in many ways) is Le visage nuptial - and it's as sumptuously scored as Le soleil des eaux, perhaps more so; and erotically charged, buzzingly vibrant piece. Something about Le soleil des eaux holds me more (perhaps it's only the fact that, having the score to it, I know it very intimately) but Le visage nuptial is every bit as attractive a piece.

This disc contains all of the above works, and is the Boulez disc I return to most frequently - one of my favourite discs of all, really, and of the post 1950 hardcore stuff in particular. It's not the Lukmska Pli selon pli, though, and that is still my favourite



For a way into Xenakis, I'd recommend Oresteia (as I did on another thread yesterday) for its blatantly Ancient Greek soundworld, its formal clarity, and its use of a kind of referential vocabulary - IOW, fanfares where there should be fanfares, homophonic choral writing where there should be homophonic choral writing etc. As I said yesterday, its a piece which reminds the listener that the abrasiveness in Xenakis is the abrasiveness of thistles and thorns and rocks and sand under your bare feet, the wind in your hair, the blood in your veins; it's not the barbed wire, angsty abrasiveness of Xenakis' contemporaries. It comes from a much deeper, more primal place.

There are plenty of other pieces which offer an entry into this world. Jonchaies is often mentioned, and it's a very good place to begin. Another one, one that has always stunned me, is the quasi piano concerto Synaphai. But maybe the greatest disc(s) of Xenakis of all are the set of chamber music discs made by the Arditti Quartet and Claude Helffer. I know you aren't a chamber music fan particularly, but the techniques in these pieces are the same as in the orchestral pieces, the sonorities are just as wild - it's just that one can hear the detail more fully and more clearly, and they are the most fabulous adventures in sound. The string quartet Tetras is absolutely unbelievable in this respect; the later, more auster quartet Tetora is equally fine. There are many standout pieces on that 2 CD set, but for me, as a cellist, the solo cello work Nomos Alpha stands above all ove them (and on this recording only, don't bother with any other - Rohan de Saram is the only one who can play it, I think, of those I've heard!). The last page, in which scales play against each other from both ends of the instrument, is absolutely mind-boggling, I can't for the life of me imagine how he can play it - I mean, I know, I've studied the score, I know how it works, but to have the technique to pull it off....well, as I say, only de Saram has it, that I've heard. The recording I'm talking about was a critical success and is available in a few editions, the most luxurious of which is this one:



As for Stockhausen, James is the one to ask... I'd tentatively suggest something like Inori, a huge, sonically beautiful and formally clear orchestral piece from the 70s - we had an online discussion of this piece hosted by the missed Al Moritz years ago (Al even supplied some of us with CDs) which was revelatory to me. I'm not the one to recommend you Carter or Nono, there are others here who know the music much more intimately than I do (there are others here who know their Boulez and Xenakis better too, but I have very strong feelings about the pieces I've just described)

Luke, thank you for this very informative post. I shall be seeking out some Boulez. As I mentioned earlier, I'm less interested in Xenakis and Stockhausen.

[DavidW]

The most difficult period of music for me to get into is Renaissance vocal music (pre-Josquin).

Same here.

[Sid]

Ah yes indeed but I'd like to see James, Sid, Philo or MI pull that off.

I enjoy a lot of the pre-c20th music - from composers of the Renaissance onwards. I even go to concerts where this music is played - eg. saw Mozart's Clarinet Quintet (twice!) & Great Mass in C live last year. Of course, I avoid composers I don't like like the plague, but it has nothing to do with what century they were born in or active in. Today I just bought a secondhand cd of highlights of Bizet's Carmen of all things. So I'm definitely not welded on to listening just to music of the past 50-100 years. I'm a musical omnivore and a true eclectic, I like variety (it's the "spice of life" as they say  )...

[Szykneij]

There's really not any music, that I can think of, that I don't enjoy, on some level.

Ditto.

[(poco) Sforzando]

No, I couldn't get through a Mozart opera because I don't like Mozart. I don't have a problem with Haydn. I enjoy a lot of his music in particular his VCs.

How about Haydn's symphonies and string quartets?

But honestly you puzzle me here. Granted, there are differences in Mozart's and Haydn's styles, but also many points in common. What about Haydn appeals to you where Mozart does not? And have you in fact ever heard a Mozart opera?

[karlhenning]

No, I couldn't get through a Mozart opera because I don't like Mozart.

I'm surprised! I almost think it impossible not to like Le nozze di Figaro.

[Florestan]

No, I couldn't get through a Mozart opera because I don't like Mozart.

I don't like Xenakis yet I got through several of his works in the last two days.   

They do have one major virtue, though: they're very short.